Due to much discussion about the new Google advertisers, "Diesel Secret", I'm posting somewhat of a summary of what we've been able to learn about this exciting new form of oil. Enjoy!


The Diesel Secret MSDS is here:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee.../4511077101/p/1 includes this, supposedly:

"DSE additive Material Safety Data Sheet
General
Synonyms: dimethylbenzene, xylol
Molecular formula: C6H4(CH3)2 This is a mixture of the three xylenes, m-xylene (CAS 108-38-3), o-xylene (CAS 95-47-6) and p-xylene (CAS
106-42-3), and often also contains ethyl bezene (CAS 100-41-4)."

also posted at that thread is an explanation of what they tell you to buy, more or less: a (questionable) SVO filtration system (they claim a Goldenrod will remove water apparently which I think is not accepted as true generally by experienced SVO'ers) and some household water filters for filtration (Dana Linscott has in the past posted some good reasons not to rely on pumping oil through those).

The MSDS for the 'additive' is available through their site. Apparently it's $13 plus $10 shipping, per each 12 oz bottle, which isn't a cheap habit when you add it to $3/gallon gasoline and diesel or kerosene and an additional cetane booster additive.

You're supposed to mix the dimethylbenzene additive with filtered WVO and
a lot of gasoline and kerosene and some cetane boost additive for good measure. In a 'Wal-Mart garbage can'.

Just remember, safety first!

There have been people using blends of vegoil and diesel or gasoline ("thinning
"), but there are cautions and problems with this approach.

There have been very mixed results in the US with blends because both used vegoil and diesel seem to vary a lot and solid material sometimes seems to come out of solution (not known whether this is WVO-related or diesel-related).

Perhaps in Europe they're buying new SVO and blending it with petroleum thinners, which I can see being an easier blend to maintain than some of the WVO we collect here. The Bio-power people (also not very well regarded in the SVO / biodiesel world) mix up their magic potion and let the stuff sit for several weeks to allow waxy stuff to fall out, which seems like a different practice than the Diesel Secret shortcut promotes.

Cold weather is a big issue with blends as well.

One (semi-critical) Infopop discussion forum thread on blends is here: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee...51/m/1571038201 , both pros and cons are somewhat discussed.

I think Tilly did some viscosity tests at one point at the infopop forum, that showed that it's really difficult to get the viscosity of cold WVO blended with petroleum products to be anywhere near the viscosity of diesel, which means that some peopel's injectors can end up spraying poor spray pattern, which can eventually lead to coking of injectors, which leads to more poor spray pattern, which can lead to engine damage (one form of which is polymerised engine oil- your lube oil becomes a rock and your engine components seize) as has been noted in dozens or hundreds of scientific studies in the past few decades. I've actually seen this happen to three different users- two SVO, one biodiesel with poor engine
maintenance and possible fuel quality problems. Some engines and fuel systems are more sensitive to this than others , apparently. For more information on how this happens please see the University of Idaho summary of some of the old 'cold SVO' studies, some of which involved blends of SVO and diesel:
http://www.uidaho.edu/bae/biodiesel/rawoils.html (follow the link for the summarise of individual studies and what kind of damage resulted)


Of course the emissions of a mixture like this aren't known either but are probably quite a bit worse than if you were to do SVO right ('heated') or to use biodiesel, though emissions isnt' the marketing angle they're using.

The worst part of this Diesel Secret snake oil phenomenon is that they're marketing (via Google AdWords) very heavily and are attracting people who are completely new to biofuels and are not going to be able to get the hand-holding and support that blenders who participate in the SVO forums will get.

The response in the SVO/biodiesel world has been extremely sceptical, and at TDI Club forums biodiesel section, there is even some concern that some of the recent discussion has been started by the DSE company's own 'shills' posing as legitimate posters. This seems to be a reasonable fear.

So... be afraid... be very afraid.

Mark

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaun,

Gm ,
I did try the search , but could not find the post , what are the problems with the house water filters ? These are what I have been using to filter my finished biodiesel . Is there a low cost alternative ? The 1 micron elements I have been using are 2 for $9 , that is the main reason I have been using them . I originally got the idea from someone here , is this just a WVO thing or does it apply to Biodiesel as well ?
Thanks ,
Shannon

They're great for biodiesel.


I think that Dana was concerned about pumps blowing holes in the element if you're pumping WVO and they plug up.

ALso, I think they dont give you a great deal of surface area so they tend to plug faster than larger filters would. However, I know that some SVO'ers are using them with slow pumps or progressive filtration (ie multiple water filters in line from coarser to finer elements)

that's my impression anyway.

Mark

Here's a link to a post where I aggregated all of the comments into a single post.
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/1311010701

-Graydon

I do all my vegoil (never tried biodiesel) final filtering with house water filters. They are still the least expensive filter I can find, if bought bulk from ebay they are around $1.50 each and are available in micron ratings from 100 down to 1. Water filters are designed for pressure filtering so that is how I use them. My filter pump is a 12 volt DC shurflo RV pump rated for 1.8 G/M with water, it moves just a bit over 1/2 G/M with oil. I was running 4 filters in line, 40,20,10,5 micron and then a seperate 1 micron polishing (continiously recirculating) filter on the storage tank. I now do a water wash/settling on the oil for a week prior to filtering, this removes most of the particulate, because the oil is quite clean after this wash I now run just one 5 micron filter and get over 500 (total, not including circulation) gallon filtered before the pressure reaches my 125 pound cut-off pressure setting.

(Be advised -- The water wash only works well with realy dirty oil, mine is the consistancy of bean soup. If the oil is fairly clean to begin with you will likely cause an emulsion that will not seperate for months. Do a small test batch fitst.)

Water filters are rated "nominal" so about 40% of the oil passing through a new filter will still contain particals larger than the filter micron rating. As the filter cloggs with material this percentage goes down, as the filter cloggs even more the filter eventualy will not pass particals at-or-smaller-than its nominal rating. Because of this I circulate the 50 gallon barrel of warm (70 deg f or more) oil through the same 5 micron filter for about 72 hours.

Water filters are not designed for the viscosity of oil and once you apply about 30 pounds or more of pressure they will start to leak oil around the ends, I have developed a set of basic felt seal rings that stops this. Unless the ends are sealed the pressure will likely never get above 70-80 pounds. Once the ends are sealed the pump can create plenty of pressure, occasionaly this pressure will cause the filters open core to collapse, I have developed a simple drop-in additional center support to stop this. It is simply a piece of 3/4 inch PVC water pipe drilled full of 1/2 inch holes.

The cheap (under $10.00) "omnifilter" brand filter housings that I use will start to leak a lead pencile sized stream past there internal housing "O" ring seal at about 140 pounds, this does not damage anything and they will stop leaking when the pressure is reduced.

Info on availability of seals and supports is here.

Not sure why you call DSE's additive snake oil...I have been using it for months now in two cummins pickups and a friend has been likewise. No trouble what so ever. Just very simple, safe, and cheap fuel...don't knock it

quote:

Originally posted by girl mark:
The response in the SVO/biodiesel world has been extremely sceptical, and at TDI Club forums biodiesel section, there is even some concern that some of the recent discussion has been started by the DSE company's own 'shills' posing as legitimate posters. This seems to be a reasonable fear.

So... be afraid... be very afraid.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by fourwheel1:
Not sure why you call DSE's additive snake oil...I have been using it for months now in two cummins pickups and a friend has been likewise. No trouble what so ever. Just very simple, safe, and cheap fuel...don't knock it

Well fourwheel1, when your fuel injection pump and injectors die, get back with us.

I just had a guy at a workshop that'd "been using it for quite some time now".....guess what he's replacing this week? A fuel injection pump!

The guy from this week isn't the only one either. I've had several people tell me they've experienced problems with their trucks after using the stuff.

For your benefit, I hope your diesel does alright. You're just in a minority on not having issues though over an extended time period.

-Graydon

Oh man; I'm tired of hearing how "great" this stuff is by people who don't even know what it is It's mostly xylenes - i.e. toxic icky stuff! Part of the reason many of us use BioDiesel is cuz it's non-toxic and MUCH better for the environment!!!

Hello fourwheel 1, welcome to the forum

It always does my heart good to see a first time poster to this forum post glowing reports of something that is just such an obvious SCAM.
You certainly had to dig deep to find this posting.
I bet you did not join this forum to talk about biodiesel.

I am always amazed that a person with an IQ approaching two digits could fall for such outright CRAPOLA.
I guess P.T. Barnum was pretty correct.

There are many things you can put in a diesel engine which will not cause harm in the short term and your diesel engine will run fine on it.

I think most people would think that if I sold petrol as a secret ingredient for $23 per 12 oz I was running a SCAM.

If someone told me they thought the DSE sceret ingredient at $23 for 12 oz was not a SCAM I would know they were either weak in the head or part of the scam.
I wonder where you might fit in the SCAM of things.

I have been reading the discussion on DSE and wanted some advice. They use a mixture of filter wvo, 10% kerosene, 5% gasoline, a cetane booster/injection and there "special" additive. What would be the negatives of this mixture without their additive? Isn't this something that has been done for many years?
Thanks, James

Hello James, welcome to this forum!

I always find it disconcerting when a person joins this forum and then immediately posts a question worded in such a way as to try and have knowledgeable people post something supporting an outright SCAM.

DSE is a Bullsh*t SCAM.
Please DO NOT try and portray it in any other light.
Undoubtedly even they can not post something that is 100% inaccurate Bullsh*t.

If you wish to learn how to make biodiesel, this is the place to be.
If you wish to learn how to run your vehicle on SVO This is the place to be.
If you wish to support the information on the DSE forum, send them an E-mail and get off this forum.

Hello Tilly, Thanks for the welcome,
My post was not an act of subversion, nor was I on the "sly" to support dse or any other product. I did not intend to disturb you. I'm new to the world of alternate fuels and as stated I was looking knowledgeable people's concerns of running the mixture I described.
Thanks, James

quote:

Originally posted by James Morgan:
Hello Tilly, Thanks for the welcome,
My post was not an act of subversion, nor was I on the "sly" to support dse or any other product. I did not intend to disturb you. I'm new to the world of alternate fuels and as stated I was looking knowledgeable people's concerns of running the mixture I described.
Thanks, James

Then read the whole thread, and post your questions about BIODIESEL here.

Hello James
As you say you are interested in SVO and wish to question people Knowledgable in operating their vehicles on SVO, the SVO forum is definatly where you should be.
They can tell you all about running SVO and the Pros and Cons of using the chemicals used to make moth balls.

Hey there, BIODIESEL guys....New people are confused at where to start. They are told (incorrectly) that DSE makes biodiesel out of WVO, so they search the Internet for biodiesel and come to this forum...Why don't you just tell them that the dse ADDITIVE is snake oil and "blending" is what the DSE process really is, and nicely push them over to the SVO side? We'll educate them.

I did not know that wvo, kerosene & gasoline were used to make mothballs, shows you how "green" I am. I do appreciate the "friendly welcome" eeveryone has given me. I will search for intelligent answers where you have suggested.
Thanks, James

Welcome James. What could be improved on this veg-oil fuel forum to make it more user friendly to provide basic information that people would actually read before they post questions at the end of discussions which have already answered their question?

quote:

I did not know that wvo, kerosene & gasoline were used to make mothballs
Thanks, James

They are not, but the major components of DSE are used to make mothballs. Some of the blenders use a little xylene in their blend. Lots to read on the SVO side.

My blend is WVO and biodiesel. D2 if I have to, but I can usually avoid it.

-Jim

Tilly you site rooster you...

The blend mentioned would work without the addative in some vehicles... trouble is the blend really is vehicle specific Unless you develop yours to your vehicles specifics it proly is just snake oil...

Moth balls were used by truckies in the 60s and 70s to increase disel power.. Tilly knows this but he is being obtuse. If I remember correctly Napthalene is aromatic and therefore toxic and carcinogous...

There are recognised "dopes" for diesel engines such as amyl nitrate and ethyl nitrate. These improve the cetane number of a Compression ignition fuel which in turn is a measure of the ignition quality of the fuel.

At 1% they have an effect but in poor fuels 3 to 5% is required... this may be the snake oil they are selling but you can get the same by buying diesel addative.

Of course if they are not doing anything about taking the water out it may be some sort of emulsifier or alcohol to mop up the water and, if peopl;e are not aware of the problem sufficiently i would predict eventual IP failures depending on the source oil water content and conditions of use...a la Warhorse..