Blending is using additives. Bacteria and other microbes can only grow if there is water present.
No water - no microbes. Any additives won't likely change that. If there are microbes growing in bio-fuel then that's a good indication that the fuel is wet, and will likely damage the IP and injectors.
Biocide additives are actually counterproductive. All they do is poison the water, and thus mask the real problem -- wet fuel.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

Whats the longest anyone has gone and not had bad fuel with blending?

As long as you want to keep it, if it stays cold, in a sealed container, out of the sun, and contains no moisture.
That's sorta like asking "How much is too big?"
Not trying to be a smart a$$, it's just that such questions can't be answered.

Thanks for your help. So if I put a sealed tank under a cover and make sure I don't have any water in the fuel, could it possible last 6 months? The humidity is high (at least 90% almost always) and the days are usually Hot over here. I don't know if this makes a difference. I plan on putting a starage tank in good shade in a place with good constant breeze to try to keep it cool. Is there anything else I can do to try to help preserve the fuel? Thanks for your help.

Yeah, that will probably work. Microbes only grow in wet oil, so make sure it's completely dry before it's stored.

Whats the best way to make sure it doesn't have any water in it. Could i pour rubbing alcohol in it? We use that for electronics all the time.

use the find function and search for "dewatering" and "hot pan test"

don't add alcohol

So I am new to this, my first post here-I have been reading this forum for over 3 weeks now,also emailed a bit off this line w/John Galt. At this point a bit confused, need to narrow down my blend. I am researching getting my act together to run a blend that I can use w/some friends and possibly a small local business. We do not want to modify the trucks at all, straight stock if at all possible. Minor filter changes and stuff would be welcome comments, but want to stick to the stock tank, no heaters etc. I heard some talk of problems with cold starts causing polamerization of the crankcase oil, how about using synthetic oil, I have been told that would resolve any of those problems? My local weather here in northern california is rarely freezing. I run a '04 dodge cummins, have a friend w/a '07 duramax and another w/a 2002-2004 power stroke. We will be collecting from local resturants. I am familar w/the settling process, but need a faster process, something more active/higher volume. I have located a small/mid sized centrifuge on simplecentrifuge.com, looks pretty good, could do some good volume w/that continuous output. I expect I can dewater and filter down really fine with that, correct? Anyone have any experience with that device? It seems better for production than the more common unit.

I am considering a version of Dr.J's blend which seems to be roughly the DSE blend, except Deezol swapped for DSE, added Kathon FP1.5. I am looking for comments on benefits and/or reasons to consider using Acetone, PGT,Naptha, Startron,Xylol/Xylene and/or any of the amsoil products. Would appreciate reasons, sugguested volumes/proportions for my application etc.

I have a great hookup pricewise for all amsoil products (cetane boost/diesel fuel modifier/cold flow improver) and all the above solvents are readily available at the local home depot. Kerosene is available at the local fuel supplier for about $2.75/gal. Dont think I can get consistant supply of Stale rug, so I dont want to go down that road. Is there anything wrong with the DSE blend? I know many of you feel dse is a rip off, but does it work, whats in the dse additive, is it safe ? I know the filter arrangement seems to have mixed reviews, clogged filters etc- any comments on any/all of the above would be very appreciated.

DSE blend is about 86.25% wvo/4.31% rug/8.65% Kero/.5%Diesel Kleen/.67% DSE-Deezol, then Dr.J adds .27%kathon FP1.5.

I understand that wvo needs to be thinned out, but can someone please clarify what is used for what? There is thinning, cetane enhancement, cold start enhancement,fine spray enhancement,lowering the cloud point.

Any and all comments/recommendation would be appreciated.

thanks
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by rtarh2o:
Keep me posted when you get the 6.2 running on a blend and I will do the same.
Rusty

I have been running a 5 to 1 WVO/RUG blend in my 6.2 with no major problems for only about 2,000 miles. The only problem was a clogged filter (sooner than expected). It seem to work just fine, and smells a lot better! I am also running the same blend in my 300SD, and it loves it!

The reason that a lot of us think that DSE is a scam is because they give the impression that their majik formula can be used instead of dewatering and filtering VO to at least 5µ. Once the oil is clean and dry almost any additive or no additive at all works just as well as the DSE snake oil.

Solvents like kerosene, stove oil, jetA, #1 ULSD, or stale gasoline reduce the viscosity of the VO. This is more important with some vehicles than others. Apparently Chev engines have more problems with viscosity than Ford or Cummins which have more problems than MBenz or Toyota engines.

Find a blend that folks with your engine are using in your climate and you'll probably be OK.

IMHO getting the engine and fuel upstream of the filter prewarmed to 'room temperature' to avoid cold starts is the most important factor with any blend in any engine. Most engine damage and engine deposits occur during cold start-up. Preheat the engine and watch to make sure you get clean starts with little or no smoke and no rough running, to ensure fewest problems and longest engine life.

Just new to all this, there are many blends listed in this thread with RUG, my question is has the wvo been treated with the methanol and Lye to remove the FFA and glycerin prior to making these blends? When I took filtered wvo and mixed RUG with it (15% RUG/85% WVO) I could always see separation after letting it set in a quart jar overnight at room temp. Is this because the glycerin and FFa's are still in it and not reacting properly with the gas? When I mixed winter blend diesel with WVO (25%WVO/75% diesel and also 50/50) it seemed to stay perfectly blended. By the way, RUG mixed a lot better than the ethanol blend gas I tried. So, do I need to treat with methanol and lye first? Thanks

Plant oils are generally too viscous to be used directly in diesel engines unless the ambient temperature is above ~80°F, and even then only in some of the more simple mechanically controlled engines. To use veg oil in all engines in temperatures below 80°F the viscosity must be reduced.
One of three methods is generally used to lower the viscosity:
1-Convert the oil chemically to biodiesel, using alcohol and caustic to remove the thicker glycerin component. OR
2-Heat the fuel system to above 80°F and the oil to >150°F before the IP. OR
3-Dilute the oil with solvents, after first removing the oils and fats that separate out below 80°F.

Older simpler engines in warm climates where it never freezes are much more tolerant to fuel contaminated with water and other stuff. Modern engines operating in frigid climates are very sensitive to contaminated diesel fuel. Pilots in the north always drain samples from the bottom of every fuel tank and visually inspect the sample for any cloudiness indicating moisture or other contamination before taking off. Where they work there is no margin for error.

Dry fuel is the single most important factor for successful long term operation of any diesel fuel engine or turbine. Vegetable oil, and especially the contaminants in used VO absorb and retain moisture/water. If one takes a well mixed sample of used VO one will very likely find enough moisture present to show on a hot pan test. If one then chills the used VO and lets it settle so the water absorbing contaminants [animal fats, trans-fats, saturated fats, hydrogenated oil, food particles, burnt bits, etc] fall out of the mix, then HP tests the two fractions, where would you guess most of the moisture is?

Clear, dry, clean VO with NO contaminants gives the fewest problems when used as diesel fuel, regardless if its being used as 100%SVO, blended VO-ULSD mixes, or transmogrified into biodiesel.

John, here are my thoughts after reading your response.
1. collect waste cooking oil
2. Pre-filter it at a temp below 80*F. (Probably at at least 70*F so it will flow. And doubtfull if I can go down to a final desired micron size at that temp.)
3. remove water (not sure how I will do this yet)
4. Add and mix with solvent (my choice based on my quart jar experiments would be diesel, probably 25% oil/ 75% diesel in northern Kansas winter and possibly 75% oil/25%diesel in summer)
5. Filter again probably with a fuel tank filter while pumping into vehicle. Possibly 5-10 microns.
I am still concerned about the grainy stuff I saw in the bottom of the quart jars, but hopefully my final filtering will remove it. I may put the diesel/oil mix into a cone tank and let it settle for the necessary time, then drain it through a valve I would install a couple inches from the bottom. And just drain the bottom couple inches and dispose of it.
Does this sound reasonable to you?
Thanks!

Snyder,

John has his own method of settling, you might ask him for the drawings and links, it works very well for him if you are not in a hurry. It removes all the sediment, fats,water etc, so you end up w/good oil, but he can explain it to you best.

If settling is too time consuming, check out centrifuges, www.simplecentrifuge.com makes a nice item that is workable for good production capacity,maybe more then you need and not soo cheap. There is another smaller/limited series of 3 sizes made by Diesel craft,based on production capacity. The Diesel craft web site has videos of how the process works. Here is a link to a way to buy them, there are likely other sources as well. click on the tab at the top that says Centrifuges. They can get down to about 0.5micron. Well within anyones spec for fuel that I have heard. I think John suggests going down to 1 or 2mics, so thats a way to do it, but there are vessel systems as well.

Lots of other good stuff there to get you thinking on hardware solutions. That site also has what they call vessel type filters, a sock sort of filter that can be cleaned and reused, put back in the vessel and put under a lot of pressure for the filtering process. yes, heating does help the filtering process w/actual filters involved. If you filter on the output of your pump you will be doing well after the rest of the refined process.

http://fryertofuel.hypermart.net/store/page13.html

Mark

To all:

So, I am located in Northern Cal, where winter rarely gets significantly below freezing. Running the typical pickup engines, cummins,duramax and powerstroke. One of the duramax's is in snow country in Nevada as well, so its colder there for sure.

Question: Are all the solvents treated equally and just based on ability to acquire them and pricing or are some better than others? Acetone, PGT,Naptha, Startron, Xylol/Xylene, kerosene,fresh RUG etc. Any specific sugguestions or experiences?

Are some solvents used for viscosity and others for cetane or other purposes? if so, whats for what?

How many of you prewarm your system prior to starting? if so, what region are you in/what temp is your typical? Do I need to prewarm prior to startup in less then freezing conditions?

I appreciate any input. Trying to dial in my blend, need more info.

Mark

Prewarming the engine to at least 'room temperature' before start-up with blends is important in almost any climate where the temperature falls below 65°F. Cold starts with blends kill engines, it's pretty much that simple. That's why most think that a two tank system using pure diesel for start-up is the only way to go. If the engine is smoking or running rough on start-up, then engine deposits are being formed.

I differentiate between solvents and additives. Generally those which are 1% or less of the total mix in the tank are additives, the others are solvents. The solvents are there to reduce viscosity, and the additives are there to improve combustion characteristics and reduce injector/combustion chamber deposits. For example one could use acetone or PGT as solvents, but that's not particularly cost effective, since other materials like kerosene, stove oil, or #1 ULSD do just as well for less cost.

The dewatering and cleaning set-up I use is described here:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/15960555...461096732#1461096732
It can produce about 30 gallons a week depending on the quality of the oil going in. The wetter the oil, the longer it takes to settle out the water. For greater volumes a centrifuge is probably the best way to go, however some have good success with heated batch settling.

John, is it possible to use additives effectively enough to reduce deposits and cold start problems,in order to avoid the heating process?

to quote you:
2-Heat the fuel system to above 80°F and the oil to >150°F before the IP. OR
3-Dilute the oil with solvents, after first removing the oils and fats that separate out below 80°F.

Can you describe the heating system? tank/lines only or what? what all are you considering in heating "the fuel system" ?

Are the oils and fats that seperate out below 80F any value in the burning process, worth keeping or need to be removed? Is this to maintain all components in solution at all temps, or do keep the fuel filter cleaner?

Does anyone have any experience using alcohol in a blend, without doing bio diesel,any info on that?

WVOBENZ, thanks for the reply. 80/20 would make me really happy! Where do you live? Have you been adjusting the blend with the temperature? How are you filtering? Are you using any heat?
Lots of questions I know, thanks
Rusty

I was referring to running VO in an engine at normal operating temperature, and should have made it clear, thanks for pointing that out. The problems occur with unburned fuel on cold start-up. Unburned VO is worse since it creates more deposits than diesel since it does not burn as well.

I don't know of any proven additive that might do the same as preheating to improve combustion on start-up.

The 115v preheating system on my truck is a 500W engine heater in the lower rad hose, an 80W silicone pad heater wrapped around the fuel filter, and a 50W 'battery blanket' over the injectors and injector lines. I considered a silicone pad heater on the IP but was concerned that it might not heat the IP evenly, and with the close tolerances in the IP it might cause increased wear or maybe even damage. Even at -30° the #1 injector line where I have a temperature probe gets up to 65°. I have a timer on the plug-ins; at -30° six or seven hours is adequate.

The components that drop out below 80° can be left in when the operating temperature is above that point. That seldom occurs up-here in the north, and those high melt components are more valuable to augment the woodstove fire on a cold morning, they also attract and retain most of the moisture, so I just separate them out at the beginning.

Everything I've read says to avoid any alcohols with any diesel fuel. They keep water in solution which is bad for injectors and IPs, as well there is the possibility of a partial biodiesel reaction releasing free glycerin which could increase engine deposits.

John,

I dont know if you lost me or I lost myself...I dont know what I pointed out Are you referring to vo blend in the tank line and ip during startup, even though you are switched over to diesel during cold start?

Maybe when you say unburned fuel you are saying the cylinder temp is not high enough to ignite the fuel, causing the unburnt fuel,yes?

So the 500w heater is not a block heater, how can the heater element be in the hose? Do you have a model # ? I guess that helps the radiator fluid avoid freezing since heat raises?

no heat applied on the line from the tank to the filter? Maybe the cold fuel running through a warm filter warms the fuel enough?

Do you remove any of these heaters before driving?

What temp would you call room temp or a minimum temp for startups?

thanks

For those using a two tank system with diesel for start-up, the cold start issue is still there but likely much less than with a VO blend.

Unburned fuel or partially burned fuel for any reason can cause deposits. Think of what VO does in a very hot fry pan. That brown goo is bad for the engine, it causes rings to stick, and eventually carbonizes which can cause cylinder wall scoring. Diesel fuel tends to burn with fewer deposits.

There are two common types of engine coolant heaters "frost plug heaters" and "lower rad hose heaters"
here's two examples:
http://www.amazon.com/Kats-11433-Watt-Frost-Heater/dp/B...d=1203546638&sr=1-13
http://www.amazon.com/Kats-14400-Lower-Radiator-Heater/dp/B000I8TQ0O
The rad hose heater is mounted in the lower rad hose directly below the water pump. Convective flow causes the heated coolant to rise up into the engine, thus drawing cooler fluid from the rad. Mine works perfectly, even at forty below.
I use antifreeze mix rated for 60 below before starting to gel.

No heat on the line from the tank to the filter. I adjust the blend for temperature so that the fuel won't gel, 6% canola is good to forty five below [that's the coldest it got this winter]

The heaters remain attached all year.

68°F 20°C is generally considered 'room temp'. I'll try to avoid that term and just specify the temperature

Wow , those Kats products are great! Are they the oem supplier? Is it an old stable, quality minded company? US or import?