rsr911

I wouldn't worry too much about that little vane pump inside the IP I have never seen or heard of one go bad. I mean it could happen but it's not high on the list of probabilities.

Take the wire off the fast idle solinoid, turn the key on and pull the wire to the run solinoid. Touch it on and off and see if you can hear a distint click. I have run into one with similar symptoms which had a sticky plunger,the solinoid checked out with an ohm meter but the mechanical rod was tight in the bore of the solinoid . Once given a sniff of ether the speed of the pump/motor running seemed to let it out, maybe the govenor leaver moved off it? don't know, I do know it ran fine and idled nice once running but shut it off and it wouldn't start. It was a /92 IHC in a school bus but it's the same motor.

Or I could just be sending you off on a wild goose chase , It's hard to diagnose over the net sometimes it works sometimes........

dan,

I did that and I can hear it click but that doesn't mean it's opening, or opening all the way. I had the governor cover off the old one least night, I'll swap that on and see what happens. Plus this way I can check the governor lever and see if it's sticking.

Still I'm leaning towards a rebuilt pump. I need this van everyday as the only other running car we have is the Expedition for the wife and kids. My car has been broke down for two years now with what sounds like a bad rod bearing, I'm deathly afraid to run it before I tear it down and check everything but the time and parts to do that just aren't gonna happen anytime soon. It's catch 22, I wanna sell it but can't afford to fix it so I can sell it. If I could sell it I'd put some of the money into really fixing this van up nice and the rest in the bank. It's a fun car but I didn't have a big family when I bought and built it. I also want to get to know these vans and engines as much as possible. we want to sell the Expedition (and get rid of the payment) and get an E350 passenger van so we can run blends in both. And I'd like a dana 60 under the front end of this one but.....

Well that wasn't it but i did find a small piece of what looks like a thin washer or flat spring, probably 1.5 inches in original diameter based on the piece I found. Gonna check the diagrams and see if i can figure out what it is.

Checked the diagram, could be the governor washer. I've been busy copy and pasting webpages into a word doc so I have everything in one place for the pump manual. My guess is whatever this part it when it broke some of it made it's way into the hydraulic head and wore it out.

Working on a getting a side job for the weekend, if that comes through I can order a pump early next week.

quote:

some research seems to indicate that it can happen catastroficly over as little as a few years once a tipping point is reached

That tipping point is past.
http://www.economist.com/scien...fm?story_id=14119825
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.../09/080901084854.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.../09/080903134309.htm
The melting permafrost is what caused the rapid temperature increase during the previous warming period between 800 and 1000. At this point it's like trying to stop an avalanche. Hold on tight, it's gonna be a wild ride as weather becomes more extreme and unpredictable.

rsr911

Yeah, I think your right About the pump, at least with any luck you'll have a rebuilt soon enough and they're resonably priced ayway compared to other pumps.

Good luck with it,sounds like you deserve some.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
That tipping point is past.

Not yet. At least the scientists arn't saying that. I'm hearing It could be as close as 10 years or as far as the end of the century, they're not sure and probably won't be untill we pass it. Methane is going up again after being stable for ten years and scientists are currently trying to discern the link to the pernafrost but it's not established just yet,soon enough though.

If humanity takes emissions to that point it won't mater what we do. All the more reason to curb emissions NOW

quote:

The melting permafrost is what caused the rapid temperature increase during the previous warming period between 800 and 1000.

First I heard of that one

Worn Injection pump -- My Bosh rotary IP has around 250,000 miles on it, over the last 100,000 it has had all sorts of blends run through it. Over the last couple years it has caused harder starting on diesel in warm temps but if I am staring on the thicker blend it cranks over just fine, once the engine is running I see no difference. I suspect this start-up improvement is due to the thicker oil sealing much better in the higher clearance around the slow moving parts inside the pump. Once the engine starts the internal fuel pump fuel feed plunger is moving fast enough that there is not enough time for the increased clearance to allow a lot of leaking. I had been placing Ebay bids on used pumps for the last several years and finally bought a supposidly working used pump from a wreced truck for $350.00, hope it works ok, at least I now have a core to trade in on a fully rebuilt $750.00 pump.

ULSD lubricity -- While web searching lubricity of ULSD on the net I found that some sort of additive is used to bring the lubricity up to spec, but - apparently this lubricity additive is not required to be added at the refinery, it is expected to be added someplace on down the distribution chain, this seems possible as local bulk fuel tanker delivery drivers have told me that this is what is done with the green or red coloring dye that is added to diesel, They fill there tank trailer out of the same spigot at the bulk fuel supply depot and then are handed a packet of dye to dump in the fuel so that the color is completely dispersed in the fuel by the time they make there deliveries.

Thawing permafrost -- Don't know about past ice ages but I have seen news reports indicating that it is one of the big concerns for the near future, the permafrost contains HUGE amounts of frozen biomass, once this thaws it will begin to decompose into huge amounts of CO2 and methane. Apparently the deep ocean floor also contains huge amounts of liquid CO2 and methane from past decomposed material, as long as it is kept cold and is under high pressure due to the ocean depth it stays put under the muck at the bottom of the ocean but if the pressure or temp changes, due to ocean warming or by fresh water dilution, it can almost instantly be released as a huge burst of gas. There have been fairly recent isolated incidents of this happening, the video I saw looked like the ocean was boiling. I have seen a couple of other news reports of localized unexplained instances of mass fish and organic matter death that may have been caused by this gas release process but this had not been absolutely confirmed.
Here in the Midwest there are several projects being built to liquefy CO2 and store it as a liquid deep under the earth. This process is what they intend to use for what is being called "clean coal" for coal fired electricity plants, ADM already has one injection well running that is injecting excess liquid CO2 from there ethanol plants. Hope it works but I am doubtful, this area has an underground geological formation with a huge depth of porous rock topped by impervious cap rock, they have been pumping gaseous methane there for storage for over 50 years, unfortunately, the gas bubbles up through many farmers water wells.

quote:

ULSD lubricity -- While web searching lubricity of ULSD on the net I found that some sort of additive is used to bring the lubricity up to spec, but - apparently this lubricity additive is not required to be added at the refinery,

In Canada it's added at the refinery in the bulk storage for the different grades of fuel. The refineries are the distributors. For example aviation turbo fuel and winter grade motor diesel fuel are basically the same but with different additives. If it's not added by the refineries in the US then it's quite possible that some of the US ULSD is not up to ASTM lubricity specs. But why wouldn't it be added at the refineries since they are required to meet the spec, not the distributors? Something doesn't add up. I don't see where the red or green dye has anything to do with it. The lubricity additive isn't in the dye. That's just to distinguish off road from road diesel, both need the same lubricity additive.

Thawing permafrost. Look at the plot on p2 of this discussion. The rapid rise of temperature during the Medieval Warming was caused by the thawing permafrost. It's difficult to imagine how humans had much to do with it. During this period there were significant migrations of peoples along the arctic coast by boats as it was ice free for most of the year. That's when Greenland got it's name. They're not sure what caused the temperature reversal back to cold. Solar cycles are the most likely cause.

Could the amount of CO2 from human activity during the past 200 years interfere with the re-cooling that happened after the previous warming periods? Humans haven't caused the warming, but it's quite possible they can now interfere with the natural warming-cooling cycles.

Regardless of these relatively brief warming and cooling periods, the average temperature has been slowly warming since the end of the last ice age some 15,000 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Tim c cook:



Thawing permafrost -- Don't know about past ice ages but I have seen news reports indicating that it is one of the big concerns for the near future, the permafrost contains HUGE amounts of frozen biomass, once this thaws it will begin to decompose into huge amounts of CO2 and methane. Apparently the deep ocean floor also contains huge amounts of liquid CO2 and methane from past decomposed material, as long as it is kept cold and is under high pressure due to the ocean depth it stays put under the muck at the bottom of the ocean but if the pressure or temp changes, due to ocean warming or by fresh water dilution, it can almost instantly be released as a huge burst of gas. There have been fairly recent isolated incidents of this happening, the video I saw looked like the ocean was boiling. I have seen a couple of other news reports of localized unexplained instances of mass fish and organic matter death that may have been caused by this gas release process but this had not been absolutely confirmed.

Yes I'm seeing and reading the same and the reserves are now estimated at 1.5 triion tons or twice whats in the atmosphere now in the latest reports here and here. At some point this release will amplify itself causing even more to be released and that tipping point is what has scientists deeply concerned as we probably won't be able to stop it.

The deep sea methane deposits are in the form of ice which is stable under presure and cold temperatures. If the ocean warms enough they could be released. Several countries including Japan And the States are looking into mining these deposits for a new fuel source but I'm not so sure that's a good idea. Converting methane (which is 20 times worse than co2 as a greenhouse gas) would reduce the effects if it was released but co2 stays in the atmosphere on much longer time scales than methane so the warming effect could be greater. No ones sure about that though.


Storing co2 under ground or under the ocean may turn out to be a viable option,I don't know but the technology of capturing the co2 from burning coal is decades away on a comercial scale and will Substantially increase the cost of coal fired electricity. Natual gas may be a better alternative in the short run till cleaner alternatives build up. We could use less as well

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:



Regardless of these relatively brief warming and cooling periods, the average temperature has been slowly warming since the end of the last ice age some 15,000 years ago.

Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. Providing links to credible sources would be more productive in trying to establish that point.

Science isn't perfect but it's methods and publications carry more weight than bloggs or media releases. There are numerous records saying the opposite like this one from NASA

quote:

Originally posted by Tim c cook:
Worn Injection pump -- My Bosh rotary IP has around 250,000 miles on it, over the last 100,000 it has had all sorts of blends run through it. Over the last couple years it has caused harder starting on diesel in warm temps but if I am staring on the thicker blend it cranks over just fine, once the engine is running I see no difference. I suspect this start-up improvement is due to the thicker oil sealing much better in the higher clearance around the slow moving parts inside the pump. Once the engine starts the internal fuel pump fuel feed plunger is moving fast enough that there is not enough time for the increased clearance to allow a lot of leaking. I had been placing Ebay bids on used pumps for the last several years and finally bought a supposidly working used pump from a wreced truck for $350.00, hope it works ok, at least I now have a core to trade in on a fully rebuilt $750.00 pump.

This is exactly what I'm thinking. A thicker blend will be harder to push past worn tolerances. Also the theory of pump speed once started was confirmed by the rebuilder I spoke to. Apparently too much leakage at low speed (cranking) but once idling it will stay running. What he told me however is that at some point it won't be able to overcome the leakage even at idle and the truck won't run. It's still warm around here so my plan is to run as much of this fuel out as possible then put in a 75-80 WVO blend and see if it will start, if not I'll continue to start with brake cleaner (heptane and tolune) which is a whole lot easier on the motor than ether. One little squirt on the out side of the filter element is enough to get it fired up. I plan to order a rebuilt pump late next week. Rebuilder also confirmed that a new pump combined with my newer injectors will make starting much easier as the higher pressure during cranking will give a better spray pattern. I have to say it's refreshing to talk with a rebuilder who isn't anti-blending/biodiesel.

Everything I have read on the subject point towards WVO with either to much water in it or not filtered fine enough, I've seen it myself, a guy I work with started burning WVO at the same time I started burning B100, he has an F250 and an Expedition both with 7.3s in them, the pick up has had one new fuel pump and the Expedition has needed two, he has since given up on his poorly dewatered WVO.

What year were those trucks? Expeditions never had diesels (Excursions did) and anyhing post '94 would have a 7.3 Powerstroke which is EFI and would not have an injection pump like this. My first pump was bad when I bought the van, I just didn't know it. When it quit I put in this used one and the van ran better than it ever has. I found a piece of a metal washer under the governor cover on the current pump, my guess is shrapnel from this went thru the high pressure pump and took it out.

My WVO is cold upflow settled after 50 micron filtration, then it was 20 micron followed by 5 micron, I have since switched to 1 micron. The clean oil always passes the HPT. With this first batch of WMO is settled it, skimmed the top 5 gallons, blended with D2 and a little RUG then thru a 1 micron. The only possibly blend related failure could have been the first pump. The morning it died it was unusually cold, had a high WVO blend, hadn't had the block heater plugged in, wasn't warmed up. It quit midway up a hill near home. I think the shaft broke.

You're right it's an Excursion, the great big behemoth, I always get em mixed up, and I really don't know what years they are.

My guess is both trucks are Powerstrokes, I've heard from various sources that the old IDI's like mine are much more friendly to blends, bio, and SVO. Usually it's the injectors that go on the powerstrokes though. One thing I am not doing but I am setting up for is washing the oils, mainly to neutralize acidity. I've also designed and will build a large centrifuge. I have all the parts except the big chunk of metal to turn the bowl out off on the lathe at work. I think I'm gonna use a stainless steel drop from a local supplier, I asked them to let me know if they get a 6-8" piece of 10-14" diameter. usually I can get drops inexpensively. Aluminum would be good to but I think for safety on a bowl that big that SS would be better, heck even steel would be fine I suppose as long I as was sure to keep in clean and dry after use. I found a good 3/4HP DC motor and drive in our old parts bin at work, boss said I could have it as all of our stuff is now AC inverter drive. I also dug up some decent pulleys and bearings. I'm gonna feed it post filtration from my variable speed pump with an input nozzle near the bottom of the bowl.

I got the side job running a Bobcat for the weekend, well actually the next two weekends. Putting in a large lawn for an acquaintence who is building a new house so I'll have the money to get a pump next week. I'm leaning toward having the local guy rebuild one of the pumps I have this way if I have issues I can deal with him face to face. Plus I can talk to him about his thoughts on a tougher main shaft if in fact that's what broke on the first pump. He's got the whole calibration stand etc. I figure the little bit of extra money is worth the piece of mind. Besides it can't hurt to get to know a good diesel mechanic.

-- Where in the production chain of ULSD is the lubrication additive added --

Looking over several websites it still looks to me like the lube additive is NOT added at the refinery but is added at the regional or local fuel distribution terminal.

This web page simply states that the lube additive must be added prior to distribution but it does not specify just when before.

This article states that the pipeline operators won't allow fuel with lube additive to flow through there pipe networks and the additive is added at the fuel terminals, the article is dated 2009.

John - This wikipedia page says rural Alaska has not yet been required to sell only ULSD, mandate starts in 2010 so you may see a rash of injector pump problems starting next ywer.

I have spoken with my local rural distributor of on-road and off-road diesel and heating oil, they only have one big tank for "diesel" and a smaller one for kerosene, they only have one 2000 gallon delivery truck that is used for delivering everything. They are also licensed as a blender so they blend diesel, kerosene, color dye, and the various additives as they are filling there delivery truck, they can't afford to be sued for the loss of a combine or tractor engine so they say they always add extra lube additive and winterizer to every load of fuel just to be on the safe side.

Yes, I can see how that would be the case in the lower 48 where much [most?] of the product is pipelined. In the North it's trucked or barged from the refineries so the additive application is different. IF ULSD has the proper amount of additive to meet ASTM specs then there shouldn't be any lubricity problems relating to ULSD use. However since it's the responsibility of distributors, it's quite possible that some are being less than diligent in maintaining specs, especially if a buck can be saved. Ever since ULSD became the norm I've been adding a minimum 5% VO or BD to my diesel fuel in the winter when it's pretty much kerosene and up to 50% in the summer. I'm not anticipating any IP problems.

Good you are using some added lube, reading through THIS article concerning the Canadian ULSD implementation program it looks like you may be getting either ULSD or LSD depending on the size of the fuel station, it even more confusing than the U.S. program.

In this part of Canada we've been getting ULSD for the past 3 years. No significant increase in IP failures have been noticed.

quote:

Refiners and importers must ensure that all volumes of on-road diesel fuel they produce or import are ULSD-compliant on June 1, 2006. Retail outlets must be compliant by September 1, 2006, but this may be extended to October 15, 2006 pending the outcome of a requested amendment.

Perhaps the article was misinterpreted.

I've been using VO & BD blends with ULSD for the past 3 years since I got a diesel vehicle. ULSD implementation coincidentally happened at the same time. The added lubricity was just a side effect, not the main reason for using VO/BD/ULSD blends.

quote:

Originally posted by rsr911

My guess is both trucks are Powerstrokes, I've heard from various sources that the old IDI's like mine are much more friendly to blends, bio, and SVO.

I agree, I've run some less than optimum bio through my /87 Jetta and got away with it. The idi type of diesel has less Injection pressure and with the glow plugs to assist ignition it seems to be more tolorent to heavier blends. The injection pressure in those types of engines are around 2,000 psi (give or take )while the unit injectors like power strokes are upwards of 20,000. That indicates that the tolorences are much tighter and more prone to failure with small particals. I remember reading somewhere that VW's TDI specs say anything 7 microns and above is a problem.

My pump has been making small pieces of shrapnel for a couple of years now. Every couple of months I have to pull the fuel shutt off solinoid and clean it out as they will cause it to stick on when they seem to collect there. Keeps on going though. So Far.

ULSD has been mandated here in Ontario since Sept /06 as well. When I was working in a fleet we made sure that the lube was added when it was dropped in the ground tanks. We still had IP failures though it's hard to blame usld as the only problem. The IHC DT series of in line IPs (Robert Bosh)seemed to have the biggest problem with plungers sticking when hot. There wasn't much of the old 7.3 IDI's left at that point to compare though.

I'd like to hear how your centrifuge works out. I remember back in the 80's working on a Belarus tractor that used one instead of a filter. It was a bit of a chore to get the bowl clean as the particals were stuck like glue like a kind of paste and were small enough that you couldn't feel any grit when rubbed between your fingers. They just angled two nozzels off the center post and the bowl was on a bearing. Not exactly high teck but it seemed to work