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Another Water Injection question
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I've spent a couple of days searching and reading posts on this subject. While it looks like it's been beat to death, I still have a few questions on it, some of which are probably do more to my own uncertainty and lack of experience. Either way, I'm at a point where additional research isn't really helping me any so I figured it was best to just start asking questions.

So here's my setup. I've got a '93 F250 4x4 Ext cab with the NA 7.3L IDI (NA=No Turbo) with a ZF5 manual transmission and 3.55 gears. It's my daily driver to and from work and I pull a 5K# 25' travel trailer with it once or twice a month and during the winter I haul halve a dozen loads of firewood with it at around 5K# each. I plan on adding a wrap style heater to the fuel filter pretty soon, and I would also like to add a WI system as well. After researching it, I feel confident that there are long term maintenance benifits to the WI system makeing it well worth the cost. I also wouldn't mind a slight performance boost when I'm pulling the travel trailer down the interstate. 1st through 3rd gear are no problem, but 4th gear will struggle on a steep incline depending on the speed limit, and I have to be running almost 70mph to get into 5th gear. In both 4th and 5th gear, if I drop below 2K RPM, I loose torque quick, and in 5th gear I have to be running well over 65 mph to hit that 2K mark, meaning that in 4th gear I've got to get it up over 2600 RPM before I shift, and going down the road at 60 MPH in 4th gear (where I spend most of the trip) I'm running 2400~2500 RPM which is a little faster than I generally like to run the ol girl for long periods of time. My torque curve starts to pick up around 1700 RPM, and it would be nice to be able to get into 5th gear on a level grade at around 1800 or 1900 RPM. If a 50/50 wather/meth mix would help that happen, it would be icing on the cake.

What I THINK I should install: I'm planing on staying relatively cheap on most of the system. The truck is old, and in another 3~5 years the body and suspension will probably be rusted out bad enough that I won't want it on the road any more. I don't plan on going the $20 route, but I also don't plan on spending $500 either. As I understand it, I need a tank, some hose, a nozzle, a pump, and some way to turn it all on and off. I can also add an optional relay, and solenoid valve depending on how I want to do it with the Solenoid valve doing a better job of shutting off the flow than just shutting the pump off, and a relay doing a better job of isolating the electrical portion of the system. My thought at this point is to use a solenoid as I am worried about any extra water getting into the engine over night while sitting in the drive way. I may not an additional relay. I'm not worried about isolationg the electrical system but I may have to in order to keep from damageing anything. Since my truck is NA, there is no boost, and there is no EGT gauge. I'm thinking about installing a thermocouple on the exhaust manifold and installing a controller with it's own built in relays and using that to control both the pump and the solenoid.

My questions: First, where do I mount the injection nozzle? I've seen lots of info on where to put it on a turbo system, but nothing really on a NA system. Can I just drill a hole in the breather cover and mount it there, or do I need to drill and tap the intake manifold? I would like to stay away from the intake manifold if I can. I haven't looked real close, but I think I'd have to spend a fair amount of time taking crap off the engine to get clear access to the intake manifold, AND I hate the idea of drilling a hole in it because I know there's always going to be at least a few metal shavings that end up inside the manifold and the idea of those shavings getting sucked up to the valves or inside the cylinder really makes by but pucker. I removed the "soup bowl" from the cover several years ago, so there wouldn't be anything in the way of the mist. Next question, am I on the right track? With a NA Diesel, will the injection system give the kind of performance improvement that I'm looking for when I'm pulling the travel trailer? Will the injection system do ANYTHING for me during my daily drives too and from work? I live in the southern half of Indiana, but it's still relatively flat. My daily drive is about 23 miles each way. Half of that is a 4 lane HWY were folks typically run 60~65 mph. Another 30% is a winding back country road where I generally run 55, but have to slow to 40 or so for a few of the curves. The last 20% is driving through town. Speeds are around 40mph, and there are 4 stop signs/lights to deal with. I don't generally drive real aggresively, but I don't drive like grandpa either. Under these conditions, should I expect my EGT to ever get high enough that I can safely engauge a WI system? If so, how much water should I expect to consume in a day or week? How much should I expect to consume per hour when I'm pulling the travel trailer down the road? I'm asking this to help me pick the correct size tank.

Thanks,
Mark
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fields_mj:
My questions: First, where do I mount the injection nozzle? I've seen lots of info on where to put it on a turbo system, but nothing really on a NA system. Can I just drill a hole in the breather cover and mount it there, or do I need to drill and tap the intake manifold?


If you mean the air cleaner cover, yes, you can put it there.

quote:
Next question, am I on the right track? With a NA Diesel, will the injection system give the kind of performance improvement that I'm looking for when I'm pulling the travel trailer?


YOu said you are after a slight performance boost when pulling the trailer.
Yes, water will give you that and a 50% meth mix may give you a significant one.
It depends on how your engine is tuned however. If you have the IP set to factory fueling, the improvement will be significant. If the thing already smokes under full power, the improvement will be slight because you have already used up all the oxygen in the cylinders and there isn't going to be anything left for the Meth to burn. The cooler inlet temps and the expansion of the water to vapor should still give a small performance increase.

quote:
Will the injection system do ANYTHING for me during my daily drives too and from work?


Depending on where you have it set to come on it may keep the engine clean and run more efficiently and it will help with acceleration if you hit the cut in point.

quote:
Under these conditions, should I expect my EGT to ever get high enough that I can safely engauge a WI system?


What has EGT got to do with when you can use WI?
Engine temp is more significant. I try to stay off the water till the engine is warmed up but if pressed, I could not give a valid reason why it would have any I'll effects on an engine that wasn't up to temp other then a possible increase in condensation inside an engine that wasn't brought up to full temp regularly as in only being used for short runs.
Driving 23 Miles to work would not fall into that category.

quote:
If so, how much water should I expect to consume in a day or week? How much should I expect to consume per hour when I'm pulling the travel trailer down the road?


Impossible to say. Depends on your nozzle size, depends on where you set the activation point, depends on if you are in the city or highway and how fast you are accelerating, the terrain and the load you are pulling. I suggest seeing you have a truck, put say a 25L drum of water in the tray temporarily and see what you use then size a permanent tank from there.

I'd say it's highly possible when towing your trailer that you may not want to carry all the water you will need and it would be more practical to stop at a servo and top the water up rather than carry too much weight n the trip out to make sure you have enough water on the trip back. That and the space possibly required by a sufficient sized tank.

You could easily use 20% water to fuel burned and more under towing but it depends on how you set the system up as in delivery rate and cut in point.

As for water dribbling in the engine over night, if your water tank is below the level of the injection pint, that can't happen. A couple of drops or a momentary dribble of water when you lift off the throttle isn't going to be anything but beneficial as well.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the info!!!

Everything on my engine is pretty much set at stock with the exception of the timing which I ask the mechanic to advance to 8.5 deg when I had the IP and injectors replaced a few years back. When I pull the trailer, I normally get some smoke, and depending on the terrain and what gear I'm in sometimes I get a lot of smoke. Obviously keeping my RPMs up by staying in a lower gear keeps the smoke down too. Sounds like WI probably won't help much with my pulling as I'm already using all the O2 available. I can certainly understand now why the turbo on these old IDI engines really makes a difference when hauling. Unfortunately, it's just not a justifiable cost for me.

Good point on the EGT. I guess a better question would be what kind of temps should I expect to see under my normal driving? Not sure that is relavent either. I would think the EGT would give me a good indication of when the engine was up to temp. The controller that I was looking at is digital and would allow me to change the set point on the fly if I needed to. Seems to me that when it kicks on and off is something I should be able to figure out pretty easy with a little trial and error.

My understanding of the kits is that by stage 2 and stage 3 they mean that the kit is able to inject at 2 or 3 different rates depending on boost, egt, or what ever else its monitoring. It also seems like most of the stuff that I've read about indicates that guys are using nozzles that give 5gph to 10gph. For my needs, I was thinking of going a little smaller and letting it run a little longer. Seems like that would do a better job for cleaning. I could always add a larger nozzle and move the plumbing back and forth for towing if it would be better. Probably just depends on how much money I want to spend.

I like your suggestion on the tank. Maybe use an actual washer fluid bottle to start out with. Most of our camping trips are relatively close to home. Longest trip so far was about 2 hrs each way, but most are in the 30~45 min range. Problem is, most of those trips take us south where the roads have a lot more sharp turns and longer steaper hills. Not the idea situation for waste oil blends, but (as I understand it) a good opportunity for a WI system. I can always throw a couple gal jugs of Distilled H20 in the truck bed. It sounds like 20% is probably a lot more than I would use during my daily driving, which would be good. 5%~10% would be pretty convieniant for me. Is that reasonable (is that still going to help keep things cleaned out)? Towing can be a different beast all together if need be. I don't mind having to stop every 2~4 hrs to top it off if I'm towing. So maybe the 1 gal washer fluid bottle would actually workout well.


Thanks again!
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Once you fit a WI system it's easy to mix up some meth in the water and actually test if it makes a difference or not. You can also go 20% meth or some other mix, you can make it whatever you want up to 50% where you start injecting fuel not water and loose the effects. IF your IP fueling is stock, I'd be real surprised if you weren't surprised at the diff a 50% mix would make at the right injection rate.

450ml/ min of 50% meth mix is worth about 21 HP. IF you can't feel that, something's wrong.

I have the same truck with the same engine in turbo and NA versions and the turbo version is light years away from the NA engine. The NA is also turned up as far as it will go, the Turbo is running Very conservative boost for what most people run but it would still walk away from the other one.
Having a turbo on these diesel engines is like running the same car with a 4 Cyl and a V8 basically.

EGT will do nothing to tell you about ENGINE temp, only combustion temp. If you want to know engine temp, look on the temp gauge or put one in.
Respectfully, I don't know what you have been reading abut WI but your impressions seem a fair ways off. There are differences in the setup and requirements of using WI on petrol engines and diesels and also with what you are trying to do with it. Do you want it primarily to clean, to add power or to lower EGT's? IT will do all 3 and at once but it's a matter of picking which one you are most interested in and setting it up for that and using the rest as side benefits.

I would not be bothered with paying for a staged system controller, that sounds complete overkill for your needs. All you need is a solenoid that opens a 2nd nozzle at a certain throttle position and you have as good as you need. Up to you how you spend your money but a controler sounds overkill to me on an NA engine which is probably a bit tired anyway when you can do the same thing with a couple of Micro switches.

If you are injecting any sort or worthwhile amount of water for power and egt's, you are going to want a lot bigger bottle than a gallon on that engine. I run 300 CC a min on 3-4L engines and that's conservative. On a 7L, I don't know how much benefit you'd feel at that rate but it would certainly be a lot shy of the practical potential. That's why I suggested a 25L drum and see if you have to fill it when towing.

For some reason people seem frightened to put in too much water. Unless you drown the engine and lock it up which would take substantial effort, that isn't going to happen. A friend of mine was setting a WI system up and had bit of a brain fade and set the pump up to do 3 LITRES of water a min over the 300 CC I told him on his 3L engine. He complained that when the water cut in the engine lost power, blew steam out and water came out the tail pipe. Drove it for 2 days like that before the penny dropped he measured wrong. Reset the WI and the vehicle carried on like normal. Didn't even have any water in the oil. HE noticed the difference straight off though as the engine was now well cleaned out!

It needs massive amounts to flood them and also a good rate of injection to work properly. I have read of people saying they put a system on and only wanted to inject 50 cc/ min because that's all they felt comfortable with and it didn't do anything. Ummmm, no kidding.
How about going by proven experience and knowledge rather than your own hangups and the result may be different. Roll Eyes

For your engine I'd start at 400 CC/ min and work from there. You'll find at a point it's a bit too much for unladen driving but fine for towing when the thing is opened up and loaded. I used to set mine at that point when I did a lot of towing. It would still let me use full power off the lights or whatever, but if I backed off it would stutter a bit. When I had the trailer on it was perfect and made a hell of a difference.

One thing I noticed was my vehicle would overheat on the freeway at full legal speed after about 20 KM when towing my big square fronted trailer so I had to back off to about 80. With the WI on, The thing Ran COOLER at 100 than it did even going 20 KM/H slower. Also pulled up the hills like chalk and cheese. Without the WI I would struggle up hills at 70. With the WI and meth, I could go up those same hills I traveled all the time at just under 100. With water only it was a tad under 90 but still a damn site better than 70 particularly when it's a 100 road.

When you fit the WI, leave it the hell alone for a month. It will clean out the crap from the engine and then the engine charastics will change. You'll notice an initial rush improvement maybe over the first week or less then more gradual improvements. If you try to get too precise on setting the WI, you'll be chasing your tail because the engine will be changing and not reacting in a linear fashion to the adjustments you make.

Set it up so it doesn't stumble and then let it settle. I recommend going heavy on the water initially to speed up the cleaning process and then when it settles down ( and you will feel the difference level out when it's cleaned) then play with it if you want.
Adding Meth seemed to also greatly speed up the cleaning process on my vehicles as well and you will love the shot in the tail it will give you if the fueling is standard.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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THANK YOU!!! I can't tell you what a relief it is to find someone who's done this on my engine. Everything I had found so far was done on either a car, or a newer truck (Duramax, PSD, Cummins).

There's certainly a lot that I don't know about WI, and what little I think I know, I've probably done a poor job of explaining. Just to clarify, my main goal is to get and keep the engine clean. I haven't burned a lot of WMO blends, but I'm going to try to do more of that this winter when it's too cold for the veggie oil to flow. The little bit of WMO that I have run was noticably dirtier than anything else that I've burned, and that concerned me. There's a good chance that my blend was off and not thinned down enough, but to me it's worth a few hundred $$ to have something in place to keep it cleaned out. The fuel savings pays for it in less than a month, so it's a no brainer. Add to that the fact that it's easy to find WMO for free, but a pain to find WVO, and I normally have to pay for the WVO, and there's a reasonable chance that I'll burn more of the WMO than anything else. So having a WI system to keep it all clean and running good is worth the cost just for the peace of mind if nothing else.

Sounds like we both pull the same camper as well.... lol. My secondary goal for the WI system is to be able to keep the EGT down when pulling the camper on a long trip. If this takes a different nozzle all together, I'm okay with that. I could swap out the nozzle before getting on the road if I needed to. I don't know if my concerns about my EGT are valid or not. I don't have any kind of EGT gauge in the truck currently. We've only had the camper for about 6 months. Since our trips are relatively short, I haven't worried much about the EGT, but without a gauge I really wouldn't want to haul the camper to a campground several hours away. It may be no big deal, but without a gauge I'll never know. The reason I was going to use a controller and trigger off EGT was that the cost for a digital controller that displays the EGT is not much more than the cost of just the gauge (The gauges I've seen are $80~$100 on up), so I'm killing 2 birds with one stone. And since the setting could be changed on the fly, it would give me a way to disable/enable the system from inside the cab without having to wire up a second switch (which I will probably do anyway just because). As you mentioned, I could also use a solenoid to redirect the flow from one nozzle to another as needed while pulling. Lots of options here. No doubt a lot more than I need, or will probably ever use. My main reasoning was that I already needed to spend the time and money to install the EGT gauge. Also, trying to figure out where and how to mount a micro switch on the throttle seems like a real PITA, and I've already got several of those... Wink That does raise a question though. Do you have your switch positioned so that your WI system is on when you're runnng at hwy speeds (80~100 km/hr), or only when you accelerate?


The reason that I was going to use the 1 gal jug to start with is because I know I can easily find a place to put it under the hood. It would be rather difficult for me to find a place to put a 5 gal bucket. The bed of the truck isn't an option. Anything that sits back there gets destroyed at some point or another. Normally by a stray piece of firewood.... I've got 2 car seats in the extended cab. One in the front pass seat, and the other directly behind it. That doesn't leave any room on the pass side floor board to put anything unless it's just for a day or two and those two days line up with days the wife doesn't have to work (meaning I don't have to pick the kids up from school/baby sitters). That only leaves the engine bay. There's plenty of room in there to have a sizable tank made to fit it, but not enough room to stand or lay a 5 gal bucket. So for the initial tank I was considering a 1 gal jug and then just see how many days it takes to empty it during my normal driving. I guess that will be determined by how large of a nozzle I use, and how long I have it on. Am I correct in saying that once the engine is up to temp, I can turn it on and leave it on until just before shutdown?

I'm a little confused on how to size the nozzle. I'm happy to start out with a 400cc/min if that's what works for a 7.3L engine, but it sounds awfully big. Sounds like it will be putting more water in than fuel. I figure that on a 3 hr drive at 60 mph I burn about 12 gal of fuel, maybe a little less. That's 12 gal over 180 min which comes out to around 250cc/min of fuel that I'm burning. If my goal is to clean the engine, and keep it clean, do I need to be putting more water in the cylinder than fuel? I'm pretty sure that I'm missing something here, and it may be more than what can be explained on here.

Thanks again for your comments!
Mark
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have only done minimal WMO testing due to the mess and stink the stuff makes when prepping it.
Veg is easy to clean up, WMO stains and gets in your skin and stinks even after you have showered and scrubbed yourself red raw. I also have no area in my place I can have as a working area thats out of the way enough to get that stuff around every where.

There are drums of WMO at my fathers wrecking yard and a nice " wasteland " area where it's stored I could use for processing but WMO and WVO don't mix so I'm not really inclined to try it where I could have problems on the way home in the middle of nowhere. I have thought about trying it in my stationary engines but then it's back to the mess of processing and mucking about and it's just not worth it when I have Drums of WVO sitting around that I'm all set up for processing.

It does sound a little scary to me as well. I suppose like putting water into an engine to people who haven't done it. :0) I have no trouble getting all the WVO I want 5 times over so it's the most convenient alternative for me.
I wouldn't do it without running WI because I know for a fact that WI will remedy a LOT of the ills that running alternative fuels can bring.

What you say about the controller makes sense. You should know what your EGT's are before worrying about them as there is every possibility you are worrying about nothing and trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

To give you a heads up on EGT's, You can destroy a motor in a minute if you have them too high. Distance is insignificant. You could pull up a hill a mile down the road from your house and toast the engine, you don't have to go 100 miles to do it. Also the effects are said to be cumulative. You keep getting the thing too hot and it will fail if not immediately, but over time. You could also pull your trailer 1000 miles and if the terrain is flat and you don't use full throttle for more than a few sec, you would never have trouble but if you live in the mountains, you could toast the engine 2 miles from home given the right circumstances with the same fuel settings.

That said -IF- your ip is set to factory fueling it would be nigh impossible to overheat the EGT"S because they would not allow sufficient fueling for that to happen. You might want to clarify some of these impressions you have because you are going to be trying to cure one problem that may not exist and potentially creating a worse one that didn't exist till you tried to fix the other one.


On my Na engine the WI was switched to come on at about 80% throttle position. I used the throttle pedal as a switch itself. I put a strip of metal under the throttle stop and then I got another strip of metal I connected to the throttle pedal and bent that out to touch the throttle stop making the circuit. At full throttle the strip would compress and then flex out again when I lifted off. It worked just fine for me. I didn't bother with a relay, the wire would burn out before the metal strips doing the switching ever would.

On flat ground at highway speeds the WI did not activate. When I came to a decent hill and needed more grunt, it would kick in. With the trailer on, at speeds above 80 it would kick in or on slight rises.
With the turbo I have the WI switching in at 4 PSI. On the highway unladen the thing runs about 2.5 PSI. It does not take much to hit 4-8 psi at highway speeds mainly due to my gearing being much lower than yours and the revs being much higher. At 120 KM/h ( about 70 of your miles) I'm doing exactly 3000 RPM in 5th. Seeing I have no intercooler presently, I'm more than happy for the water to kick in relatively early. Boost is also more important than RPM. IF it's boosting even at 1500 rpm to 6 psi, it will suck the water down very happily.

Finding a spot for a sufficient water tank is a pain. I was going to use a belly tank but filling would be a problem. The thing I'm looking at atm ( haven't had the turbo truck long) is to use a bit of 8-10" round PVC pipe, cap the ends and put it under/ behind the front bumper. I'll paint it black so it blends in with the bull bar ( which also needs a good paint) and tap a fill and breather in the end cap along with a pickup point for the WI pump.

I was thinking to put a block under one end to make the water run one way a bit to keep the pickup submerged or I may be able to work out a sump of some type and suitable size.
For the minute I have a 25L plastic drum in the back and for most things except full loads it works well. I have either been taking it out or just putting it on the back seat as there isn't sufficient space on the floor for where I have my seat back and the Mrs doesn't like to be sitting forward of me.

I used to worry about the engine being up to temp before hitting the squirt but don't worry now. I have no lock off for it, it's purely controlled by throttle position on the NA and boost on the turbo.
I have hit the squirt heaps of times with a cold engine and I don't see it doing any harm. If the engine is cold the Veg is more likely to be sticking to the rings so having the water would be ideal really. Secondly, I figure I shouldn't be pushing the thing hard enough to get on the squirt when it's cold anyway. If I have to I can, but I think it's best avoided. On the turbo I don't worry because the heat from the boosted air will be evaporating the water anyway.

AS far as water consumption goes, you should only be injecting when under higher load, not all the time. The engine is using fuel constantly to run, the WI will be intermittent.
When you have the thing wide open and you are pulling up that hill, the engine will be using something around the 2+ Litre a minute mark. There is 10 KW per liter in veg oil so if your engine is doing say 150 KW max power..... It will be sucking down approx 3 times the fuel energy that it's putting out because engine only convert about 1/3rd of the fuel energy to usable power.
As you can see, 400CC of water is literally a drop in the ocean.

The tractor pullers and racers can be pumping water in on par and I have read over, the amount of water they burn which is pretty amazing but they need to in order to keep the EGT"s down when they roll enough coal to put a steam train to shame.

The 400cc ( say) will be virtually momentary. Even if you climb a hill for 5 min and the water is on all the time, it won't be on at all when you are going down the other side. The engine will be consuming fuel though. I ran a 5L water tank on the NA and it worked out, on average, to be enough for one tank of juice running round town or an unladen trip along the highway. Now if I was towing a lot or had loads, then the water usage went up heaps but then mileage from a tank of fuel went down so it kind of balanced things out.

If you are mainly looking at cleaning, then the water doesn't have to run all the time. Set it up for High load activation at which time you can pack a lot of water in there and have the benefits of lowering EGT and extra power and it's all good. The engine won't be fouling much when it's at cruise so the water won't be needed.

IF you want power and NEED to lower EGT's ( when you verify that with your gauge) then the water will run more often and will do it's job for what you want. By the same token, your EGT's won't ( certainly shouldn't!) be high when you're cruising on the highway so the water may not come on potentially at all for an hour. When it does though, it will be and need to be at a pretty significant rate.

This is what I meant when I said about setting the WI up to do what you want.

You'll see once you install it how it averages out but don't think for a minute that you need to multiply the WI nozzle flow by the engine running time because its not how it works. You might use a litre of water in one hit then not use another drop for 15, 30, 60 or whatever minutes.
All you need to do is carry sufficient water to do you between stops till you can fill up again.

In actual fact, it's not fuel consumption that even comes into the equation. It's AIR consumption.
People always freak about the amount of water. If you work out the amount of air your engine is consuming/ displacing even at say mid revs, it works out to hundreds of litres a minute. Remember how Holley carbs are rated, 650 CFM being the popular one and most of the engines they would be on would be a lot smaller than 7.3L and being petrol, they don't run wide open all the time like a diesel does.
Drop 400CC of water into a box containing 650 CF of air and you won't even be able to wet the sides of the box down let alone have a puddle at the bottom.

That's how WI really works and should be sized rather than with fuel consumption.

From time to time I have given engines a saturated water treatment and I can easily get 1.5L of water down the intake of a Merc engine just revving it up in the driveway and pouring the water straight down the inlet. Try it on your truck. Open the air cleaner and see how quick you can get the engine to drink 1L of water while running at say 2000 rpm without it even bogging down. You won't see any steam or water out the tailpipe unless it does start to splutter. If it does, stop the water for a couple of sec till the revs come up and go again. Do that a couple of times and then take it for a drive and you will feel the thing is more sprightly and just revs easier and smoother. Water is that effective.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Thanks again for all the info. I like your idea of using some PVC pipe to make a tank. I might be able to work out something like that as well.

I know what you mean about WMO. Problem is that I don't really care to add lots of heat to my fuel system. I'm hoping to add a 12V 100Watt wrap heater to my fuel filter in the next few weeks, but that's about it. The idea of a FPHE sounds great, but I ABSOLUTELY HATE messing with the engine cooling system on a vehicle. I've already replaced my water pump, and so long as it holds, I don't ever plan on getting into it again. That's 16 hrs of knuckle busting work that I don't ever want to do again. That, and the cowl behind my grill is held together with wood screws and furring strips after hitting the last deer. If I take it apart, I'm not sure it will go back together again... LOL

What you are saying makes perfect sense. Almost sounds like RPM should play a roll in the water consumption, but I can see where that wouldn't realy be an effective switching method either. This brings to mind another question. How often does the system need to run in order to clean out old build up? Since I'm looking at using EGT to trigger the injection, I'm now a little worried that during normal driving it won't ever get high enough for me to kick it on. What I mean is that while the EGT does change, it doesn't change nearly as quickly as throttle position or boost (which I don't have). If I set it high enough that it's not on all the time, then it may not come on at all. That's why I was thinking of using a smaller nozzle and letting it run longer. Guess I'll have to purchase and install the gauge/controller and see what temps I acutally get during the drive. Towing will obviously be a different story all together.

With my gearing, going down the hwy to work, I'm typically running 1700 to 2000 RPM in 5th gear and that will get me to 55~65mph. Unloaded, I've got to really stand on it to get it to smoke any, and it plain won't smoke like the turbo's I see the kids driving down the road these days. So I'm confident that my fuel system is set pretty close to stock. With the trailer on, it's a whole other story. I've got to keep it over 2K rpm or I loose power quick which means that I stay in 4th gear until at least 65 mph. I don't come out of 3rd until I hit 50. When pulling the trailer, I'm always putting out some smoke. Once the RPMs get up over 2200 RPM, I don't get a lot of smoke regardless of what gear I'm in. On the shorter trips, I'm not as prone to try to go a little faster and more prone to just take my time. Probably a good idea anyway. However, if the trip is going to take me a few hours, I'm more prone to push the truck a little harder to try to get there and get set up before dark. That means more smoke, probably higher EGT, and more potential damage over time which is what I would like to avoid. I think that using comon sense while driving would, in all reality, be enough to keep me from ever damaging my engine while pulling my trailer using D2, but I do worry about pulling with WVO or WMO over the coarse of time.

Once I have the materials on hand to do the WI system, I planned on doing just what you suggested. Have the wife run the motor at 2K, and then start seeing how much water I can squirt in there, starting off really slow.

Out of curiosity, what kind of pump are you running?
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm curious if anyone has added a basic chemical to their injection water? Oven-cleaner (lye, or sodium hydroxide) is the only known chemical that will degrade oxidized WVO. Will it free gummed or coked rings if injected with the water? Will it attack the lube oil? Isn't this a potential revolution in treating low-compression WVO engines?
Also, when changing the head gasket on a diesel, can oven cleaner be sprayed onto the piston top and left over night to free coked rings? Anyone done this? Thanks
 
Location: puget sound | Registered: December 14, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ever tried putting any of these caustic substances on metals and carbon?
Wanna hazard a guess which one it reacts with about 50 times faster than the other?

Putting any of that stuff in the injection water would make the problem about 1000 times worse. Once the water evaporates off the hot surfaces, IE rings, it's going to go back to a solid form and leave loads of deposits itself. You would have to be injecting a LOT of water to keep it liquid by the time it got to the rings and then you'd want to try and inject a lot more with no additives to get rid of what you just put in there. When it's dry it's not going to do anything to the carbon and when it's wet it would probably be washed away of drying too quick to do any good.

Never done it but based on my experience with WI, I'd say putting any caustic or soaps into the water would be a VERY bad idea.

As for putting it on the top of the piston, it may make for clean piston tops but I can't see it doing jack for the rings. Even if it did soften the carbon, it's not going to physically remove it and when you start the engine it will be just pushed back into the lands and bake in again.

Water on it's own particularly if you can get it into the cylinder as droplets rather than evaporated like everyone is brainwashed to think has to happen, will work on the deposits and be extra effective from the effects of cavitation. Basically the water droplets will go off like mini explosions with the sudden rise of heat and pressure in the cylinder.

This has been researched and proven ( Haven't got the link on the machine I'm on right now) to be effective in removing carbon deposits but not strong enough to affect pistons, bores or have any erosive effect on metals.

Seems the golden rule with WI is Don't over complicate it.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm looking to add water injection to my 1987 F250 Diesel. It's stock 6.9 N/A. What would be a good size nozzel and pump to start with?
 
Location: Hawkinsville, Ga. 31036 | Registered: October 24, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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it doesn't stumble and then let it settle. I recommend going heavy on the water initially to speed up the cleaning process and then when it settles down ( and you will feel the difference level out when it's cleaned) then play with it if y


I'm finally getting around to trying this. I'm starting off with a simple $15 windshield washer pump. Not sure on the nozzle yet. I'm going to order a couple from mcmaster-carr and try to find one that matches up with the pump to give me the 400 cc mentioned above. Other than that it's going to be a micro switch and a relay.
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Don't worry about getting the 400CC per se. As long as it's not too much, any amount will do. If you get 350 or something in the ball park, be happy. It's not an exact science and it will work.

The main thing I have found is to keep it regular. As long as it's injecting A reasonable amount of water for every tankful of oil you are burning, it's all good.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I'm not trying to be exact. I'm just not sure what kind of pressure the washer pump is going to generate. The nozzles that I'm looking at go from 3 gph to 6.3gph, then to 9.5gph @ 40PSI. Pretty big steps. 6.3gph comes out to 397cc per min, but I don't think the pump will give me 40psi. I'm basically buying multiple nozzles so that I can bench test them with the pump and find out what's going to get me in the ball park of 350~450 cc/min. That works out to 12~15 oz per min, so a standard water bottle will work well for testing.
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Spose it depends entirely on what pump you use. I doubt they are all the same. I know a good one is a VDO made pump which are available here on Holden and Ford Vehicles as weoll as some Jap and euros.
The ones I have used with the black covers do 30-32 lb.

The best thing is to go for a large nozzle and then measure it's output. The VDO pumps I tested with the garden misting Nozzle did just over 300 cc min which was perfect for what I wanted.

For higher pressure pumps I believe the ones installed in mercs and Volvos for the headlight washers are quite high pressure. You can always use a needle valve to bleed off some pressure back to the pickup side if it's too high or use a smaller nozzle.

There are Digaphram pumps on fleabay that do around 35 PSI that are not expensive. I use one of those atm because I have a remote resivour of water I need to pull from the tank at the back of the truck.
On a country trip I can easily burn 40L of water/ Meth so a windscreen washer bottle just isn't near enough.

You might want to put a cheap plastic fuel filter before the pump to keep debris out of your nozzles. No matter how careful I was, I kept getting crap in the system but the fuel filter pre pump fixed all that once and for all.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The one I picked up is a universal washer fluid pump. It came with a (short) hose, flying leads, and a couple of Ys for the lines. It's also self priming which I figured would be nice. The nozzles out of McMaster Carr are around $8~$10 each so I splurged and ordered 3 different ones along with a hand full of brass fittings that I will likely need for the install. Total bill was about $50, but I got enough to do 2 or 3 systems. I'd rather have left over pieces than be one piece short and have to pay shipping again and wait on it to arrive.

If all else failes, the local TSC has 1gpm pumps available that do 60~120psi. They are for use on those 15gal sprayers that go on a lawn tractor or ATV. They run about $50 and will likely outlast the windshield washer pump that I bought. I believe they are also rebuildable. In fact, I think my dad has a lightly used one sitting on the shelf at his place. He pulled it off his sprayer and installed a larger pump. I've also seen 12V 70PSI pumps for RVs on Ebay for under $30. Either way, there are lots of options for the pump with out spending tons of cash.

I do like the idea of putting a return line in with a needle valve in order to give some adjustability. I like that idea a lot actually. As I mentioned originally, I can see this system having multiple benifits. First and formost keeping the injectors clean, but also giving a slight boost in performance when pulling our travel trailer down the highway. Around here, if your not running at least 60mph (100K) you'll get run of the road. Get on the Interstate and you need to run at least 70 (110K). With the stock engine, I've found that it doesn't like to go into 5th gear when towing unless I'm running at least 65. That puts me at around 2000rpm in 5th gear. I don't mind running 2000rpm in 5th gear, but that means that I need to get up to about 2800 rpm in 4th gear before I shift and I don't like running the engine that fast. Anything lower than 1900 rpm and I start loosing too much torque. If the system can give my torque a slight kick in the pants, maybe I can keep my RPMs down a little reducing some of the wear and tare on things.

Thanks for the heads up on the filter also. That sounds like a great idea. I have heard others mention that same problem. The nozzels that I bought all have a mesh screen on them, but I know that it doesn't take much to clog those up either. They can be back flushed, but you have to take the nozzel off to do it. Better to put in a $4 inline fuel filter and not have to worry about it. Any reason you didn't put the filter after the pump instead? My guess is that most pumps can handle what ever lime, calcium, or rust deposits they suck up out of a water tank. I would think that having the filter as the last thing before the nozzel would help reduce any contaminantes that could come from the pump.
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What is the actual redline on your engine? It sounds like you are either being very conservative on your engine speeds or the gear ratios are crap. 800 sounds a lot between 4th and 5th. Normally they are about 500 revs.

If you want a power boost you can always add some methanol/ Methlated spirits or whatever other alcohol you can get cheaply. Even 30% should help you pulling the trailer. I'd start there and see how the engine likes it before you went any higher.
But I'ts like I think I described here ( or on another thread recently) it depends how you set your system up. You can set it at a higher boost to kick in the power and cleaning at the top end or you can have it lower so you run more water ( and meth) for keeping down EGT's and cleaning etc.

If you set the water to come on fairly early, you can then wind the fuel up to get more power without having to worry about the EGT's and fouling from WVO.Fueling the thing up a bit will give you much more torque at the same revs and sounds like a good way to go for what you want. You don't have to go crazy, diesels are fueled very conservatively from the factory so a bit extra fuel will make a big difference.

I put the filter before the pump as the one I have is a diphram type and I can't see anything coming out of that. I rather have the pump protected than just the nozzle. The pump I'm using atm is much higher pressure than I wanted at 70 PSI which also made me wary of putting that much pressure on the cheap paper elemented filters. I think they may blow out pretty quick at that pressure. The draw can never be that high so safer and better protection that side I think.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think I redline at 3400, but I very rarely let it hit 3K. Yes, I'm very concervative. I'm running 3.55 gears. Originally I had 4.10 gears, but I had to have a lot of work done to the drive train when I got the truck so I had the gears swapped out at the same time for better fuel milage. It's my daily driver, and back then we didn't have the travel trailer. Now I wish I had my 4.10 gears back, but don't want to drop $1K to get the job done. It's not a true 800rpm drop, but when I'm pulling the trailer, by the time I complete the shift I've lost a some rpm in the process as well. The difference ends up being in the neighborhood of 700 rpm. IIRC, the torque curve drops back off around 2800 rpm on the 7.3L N/A engine. So I'm going from the top end of the torque curve, to almost the bottom end at that point. On the lower gears, I have plenty of torque left over. It's only at highway speeds that it starts to become an issue. In reality, 5th gear is an Over Drive, so it's not unreasonable not to be able to use it. I'm just being stuborn Smile

I'll play with it over time once I get it on there and see what works best. Main thing right now is to get the system on there to start cleaning it out. Once I'm back at a stable opperating condition, I'll start playing with it to see if I can get the truck to burn a little more fuel down around 2000 rpm. Honestly, I think getting things cleaned back out will likely get me pretty close to where I want to be.
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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For some reason I got confused into thinking your vehicle was turboed.
Adding some meth to the water should make a big difference to your power if the engine is at the stock fueling rate. the big benifit of it is you can have the power when you need it ( like when on the bottom of that touque curve) without compromising fuel economy or range if that's the concern.

I also found that running meth seems to speed up the cleaning process significantly. Not sure why that is or what physical action is occouring to make it happen but I'm more than convinced of it.

One thing that was suggested to me with the WI was cleaning of the inlet and exhaust. I have seen myself how the inlet is cleaned at least as far as the manifold goes but I'm not sure what sort of significant buildup would occour in an engine to impeede airflow. I have removed the PCV from my engine as it just makes the inlet a black mess.
As far as exhaust goes, there could well be something there. Depending on the design of the muffler fitted, it's easy to see how buildup could reduce flow there. If the steaming effect of the water removed buildup, then that alone could help with performance by letting the engine breathe.

I'm going to remove the muffler on my truck and replace it with some straight through pipe and see how that goes. I believe it will allow the turbo to spool a lot better and if it's not too loud which I don't believe it will be, it may allow me to run a bit more fuel without causeing too much smoke on the bottom end. I'm wary of smoke on WVO not because I give a damn about smoke per se but rather it is an indication that the veg may be excessive enough to cause ring fouling.... which is a big reason I run the WI.

I'm also going to change the WI setup. I found a port on the back of the inlet manifold that is threaded after the turbo. I'm planing to move the WI point there and inject it as a stream of water rather than the spray I have now. the reason for this is the stream of water will be broken up hitting the other side of the manifold and carried by the airstream and bouncing around before it hits the cylinders. Some will evaporate but I want droplets going into the cylinder and evaporating there.

I believe this will have the best cleaning effect where I really want it, around the rings. Everything else I also think will be cleaned better by a bombardment of water droplets that just what amounts to humidity if the water is all evaporated like most people aim for. As I have said in the past, for cleaning purposes I definately think that the conventional WI thinking is not best for our purposes.

Even as droplets in the airstream I think the evaporative effect of the water will also be helpful in reducing inlet temps as well as EGT's. I'm running pretty conservative boost atm so I will be able to turn it up more without going backwards through High inlet temps.

To regulate the water flow, I'm going to just do the same as a mate did and flatten the end of a bit of copper tube screwed into the inlet with a compression fitting.
There's just no getting away from the fact the simpler and more basic you keep WI for our purposes the more effective it is.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Yeah, mine is NA. I looked at adding a turbo when I got it, but couldn't swing the $$. Even now, I don't want to spend the extra funds for something that's just going to require more maintenance down the road and not really save me any money in the mean time.

Having more power at the low end would certainly be nice for pulling the trailer. For me 2000 rpm really isn't the low end. On a normal day, I would like to say that I don't usually get above 2300 rpm, but that would be a lie. I've found that I drive more aggressively on my way home after work, and will often wind the engine out a little more between gears normally hitting around 2600 rpm. On the highway, I normally run just under 2000 rpm. Either way, being able to get a better burn on my fuel when towing will be nice.

I'm pretty sure that my fuel system is pretty close to stock. I had a new pump and injectors put in back in 2010 (181K miles) as a preventative measure. I'm pretty sure that everything on the truck was still factory stock up to that point. I did ask them to advance my timing slightly while they were at it, but I don't have any way to validate that it was done. Without the trailer on, I've got to stand on it to get any smoke, even with D2. Not hard to do from a dead stop, but during my normal driving it doesn't happen much. I've never really understood how the meth works anyway. I know that its more fuel, but that also means that it's consuming oxygen during combustion and in a non-turbo I run out of oxygen LONG before I run out of fuel. The only thing I can figure is that the Meth also acts as a catalyst and effectively raises the cetane rating of the D2, WVO, and/or WMO. That would make sense because the Meth should detonate before the rest of the fuel which would raise the temperature and pressure in the chamber resulting in a more efficient burn of the fuel despite consuming some of the oxygen. If that's the case, maybe its worth my while down the road to always run a little meth. Something else to play with after everything is installed and working.

I would think that you would have to be dumping in a LOT of water to have much of an effect on the exhaust. Maybe it would do a good job of cleaning up near the valves, but I can't see where it would do much after that.

Let me know how the exhaust turns out. I've thought about working on mine, but since it's NA, I haven't bothered. Again, the exhaust is factory original, but still in good shape so I haven't been in a hurry to try to fix what isn't broken. If it ever wears out, then that will open some possibilities. Yeah, mine is NA. I looked at adding a turbo when I got it, but couldn't swing the $$. Even now, I don't want to spend the extra funds for something that's just going to require more maintenance down the road and not really save me any money in the mean time.

Having more power at the low end would certainly be nice for pulling the trailer. For me 2000 rpm really isn't the low end. On a normal day, I would like to say that I don't usually get above 2300 rpm, but that would be a lie. I've found that I drive more aggressively on my way home after work, and will often wind the engine out a little more between gears normally hitting around 2600 rpm. On the highway, I normally run just under 2000 rpm. Either way, being able to get a better burn on my fuel when towing will be nice.

I'm pretty sure that my fuel system is pretty close to stock. I had a new pump and injectors put in back in 2010 (181K miles) as a preventative measure. I'm pretty sure that everything on the truck was still factory stock up to that point. I did ask them to advance my timing slightly while they were at it, but I don't have any way to validate that it was done. Without the trailer on, I've got to stand on it to get any smoke, even with D2. Not hard to do from a dead stop, but during my normal driving it doesn't happen much. I've never really understood how the meth works anyway. I know that its more fuel, but that also means that it's consuming oxygen during combustion and in a non-turbo I run out of oxygen LONG before I run out of fuel. The only thing I can figure is that the Meth also acts as a catalyst and effectively raises the cetane rating of the D2, WVO, and/or WMO. That would make sense because the Meth should detonate before the rest of the fuel which would raise the temperature and pressure in the chamber resulting in a more efficient burn of the fuel despite consuming some of the oxygen. If that's the case, maybe its worth my while down the road to always run a little meth. Something else to play with after everything is installed and working.

I would think that you would have to be dumping in a LOT of water to have much of an effect on the exhaust. Maybe it would do a good job of cleaning up near the valves, but I can't see where it would do much after that.

Let me know how the exhaust turns out. I've thought about working on mine, but since it's NA, I haven't bothered. Again, the exhaust is factory original, but still in good shape so I haven't been in a hurry to try to fix what isn't broken. If it ever wears out, then that will open some possibilities.
 
Location: SW Indiana (Brazil) | Registered: August 05, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are Cheap turbo Kits available on flea bay now for a lot of Vehicles, They are chinese made but get very good reviews from the people that have bought and installed them.

Not sure I really understand/ agree with the more maintence down the track Mindset. It's not like you will be " Maintaining' The turbo every 12 months. It should last a minimum of 5 years before you even have to think about looking at it. You'll probably do a clutch, brakes a couple of times at least and a bunch of other things in that time. I also wonder if you are concerned about maintence, why the hell you are running veg and not just buying diesel that you pump in and dont have to do a thing for in preparation. Big Grin

I have had the same vehicle in NA and turbo form and I can tell you which one is the far more pleasurabe, comfortable, relaxed and gives me the better sense of security and it wasn't the gutless one that's for sure. The turbo makes such a difference. The torque is so much better all the way through the rev range and highway driving is just so much more relaxed and laid back. I regularly drive mine 400KM at a stretch and don't change gears once save for one section through a town I have to go through. Other than that it's 5th gear, even with a decently loaded trailer on and I'm still going up the steepest of hills at above legal speed.
No more of the stiring the pot constantly like the NA version.

I wouldn't worry about revving the engine a bit. An Italian Tune up is a very good thing on veg fueled engines. I rev mine out pretty much once per trip where possible and I have the thing warmed up. I think a bit of pressure through the engine does it real good and a few mechanics I have spoken to have said there is nothing wrong to taking an engine to is redline occasionaly.

You are on the right track with the meth. It lights off before the veg does which lights off later than diesel so I believe brings the timing closer to where it should optimaly be on standard timed engines. Also Methanol and most alchohols carry their own Oxygen atoms so won't require as much oxygen from the air as other fuels like Kero, Diesel, Veg or bio. They are not self sufficent oxygen wise, but they are not totaly externally dependent either. A percentage of Nitromethane could be added to the fuel to bring the oxygen content up to where you might want it! :0)

As for the exhaust, there well may be some significant improvements to be had there. Not sure what the standard exhaust size is but you would want at least 2.5" on an NA and 3 is considered better without going overboard. The exhaust on my truck is larger than standard but smaller than optimal which is why I want to try removing the muffler to see if that helps with the flow any and is still liveable with when driving.
Back pressure is a big thing on diesels, Na or turbo. Extractor exhausts can also help quite a bit.
Better flowing exhausts not only help with power but also with lowering stress on the engine through cooler EGT's and engine temps.

You have to remember it's a system. Doing either of 2 things on their own may have minimal to ne effect. Do them both together and the results are significant. The idea is to remove all the bottle necks and restrictions. Adding water or meth injection may not give much of a performance improvement if say for example your exhaust is restrictive and holding back the power you already have. Changing the exhaust on it's own may not make much difference without fueling the engine up or adding the water meth if the exhaust is already capeable of flowing sufficently. Add more fuel directly in the form of water/ meth AND put on an exhaust that is capeable of flowing the increased gas rate and then it all comes alive.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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