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posted
Whos doing it in there diesel engine?& how? DCS mentioned it in another post. Can you give us details please?


99 E350 psd
 
Location: central, east coast FL | Registered: September 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Bork,

I used to (past tense) import/distribute/install Aquamist water injection systems from the UK for the zipperhead/import fart muffler crowd and yes water/methanol injection does work.

It greatly cools the intake charge post intercooler and reduces in cylinder temps. Eliminates detonation, increases octane rating, cleans the cylinder, etc.

Aquamist systems work great for turbo charged and supercharged gasoline engines and work fine on smaller diesel engines but for the larger American diesels they just can not flow enough water/meth to keep up with the demand.

There is a US company that sells through Summitracing and other places. There system is not as refined and is simply a Flo-jet pump with relays and nozzles but it will flow more water.

I don't deal with any of that stuff anymore but please feel free to ask questions. I have spend plenty of time under the hood, doing dyno runs and test runs monitoring temps and engine performance.


Shane Lowrance
'97 E350 PSD over 40K on blend
'74 Bronco with a Cummins 4bt. 10K on the blend
'91 350SDL Benz 60K on the blend

My blend:
122 gallon of clean WVO.
30 Gallon of K1 (clear kerosene)
1 gallon of Naphtha (antigel)
1 gallon of pure Turpentine (cetane booster)
.5 gallon of Acetone (injector cleaner)
and ~1/8 gallon each of silver and white Diesel Kleen

Oil is centrifuged down to .5 micron for junk and water removal. Thinners mixed in at room temp.
 
Location: TX | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Some info for reading...

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24638
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19019
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16220
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15662
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6863
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21022
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4901
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2006
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11624
http://home.att.net/~stevemon/AlcoholInjMod.html
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html
http://www.sasked.gov.sk.ca/docs/physics/u4b2phy.html
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~petermca/products/diy_water/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/alcohol.html
http://www.geocities.com/rad87gn/tech/SteveCkit.html
http://www.markphillips.net/wi.html
http://home.ccci.org/Key_Information/2ndWaterInjection.htm
http://autospeed.com/A_0115/P_1/article.html
http://www.ipass.net/~jdennis/images/h2o/
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/WaterInjection.html
http://better-mileage.com/water1.html
http://www.510again.com/articles/watering/watering.html
http://www.noswizard.co.uk/water.htm
http://www.se-r.net/about/200sx/scc/feb99/water_injection.html
http://member.newsguy.com/~gtfour/skeptics.html
http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html
http://www.dune-buggy.com/turbo/methanol.htm
http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html
http://membersites.namezero.com/jogauthi.nmu.edu/gi/wi.htm
http://members.aol.com/raydorman/
 
Location: Mito, Japan | Registered: November 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So does it go before or after turbo? & you have it in your 97 PSD? or will soon?
quote:
Originally posted by mjrchode:
Hello Bork,

I used to (past tense) import/distribute/install Aquamist water injection systems from the UK for the zipperhead/import fart muffler crowd and yes water/methanol injection does work.
So you have it in your 97 PSD? Or will soon? Does it inject before or after turbo?
It greatly cools the intake charge post intercooler and reduces in cylinder temps. Eliminates detonation, increases octane rating, cleans the cylinder, etc.

Aquamist systems work great for turbo charged and supercharged gasoline engines and work fine on smaller diesel engines but for the larger American diesels they just can not flow enough water/meth to keep up with the demand.

There is a US company that sells through Summitracing and other places. There system is not as refined and is simply a Flo-jet pump with relays and nozzles but it will flow more water.

I don't deal with any of that stuff anymore but please feel free to ask questions. I have spend plenty of time under the hood, doing dyno runs and test runs monitoring temps and engine performance.


99 E350 psd
 
Location: central, east coast FL | Registered: September 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't have it in my '97 yet but I am just starting the mods. Since I don't have a stock intercooler I figure I will probably install one later to help with the EGT's going up long hills when towing .

The water/meth jet is installed after the turbo and after the intercooler (if equiped). I had a few customers that triggered their injection system off of EGT monitors which is probably what I will do.

HTH


Shane Lowrance
'97 E350 PSD over 40K on blend
'74 Bronco with a Cummins 4bt. 10K on the blend
'91 350SDL Benz 60K on the blend

My blend:
122 gallon of clean WVO.
30 Gallon of K1 (clear kerosene)
1 gallon of Naphtha (antigel)
1 gallon of pure Turpentine (cetane booster)
.5 gallon of Acetone (injector cleaner)
and ~1/8 gallon each of silver and white Diesel Kleen

Oil is centrifuged down to .5 micron for junk and water removal. Thinners mixed in at room temp.
 
Location: TX | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
First and foremost, it needs to be understood the differences in the way a petrol engine works and a diesel. Most of the info mentioned so far is Petrol engine related and not applicable to a diesel engine. There are significant differences in the way the engines work and what effect water will have on them.


My reason for setting up a water injection system on my car was because of my concerns of buildup and deposits in my engine that would lead to ring coking, valve sticking and other problems. This was fairly early in my learning curve with a Diesel car and I was trying all sorts of blends and worried I would make a mistake that could lead to major engine problems.

I had read much about water injection including its use on turbo charged performance cars, aircraft and large ships. Large ships burn a fuel which is called “ Bunker oil” and from my understanding, it is one fraction up the refining scale from tar. Many on these engines have fuel injector which not only inject the fuel oil but also an amount of water. The purpose of this is to basically “ steam clean” the engine and prevent the thing getting clogged up with deposits…. The exact same thing I was looking for in my engine!

Having a look on the net I found many expensive and complicated systems which all seemed based on performance benefits that would be useless on my agricultural 300D engine which isn’t even turboed. I came across a local site which gave details of a spray system for intercoolers.
This consisted of a GM windscreen washer bottle, a controller and a brass misting nozzle used for misting chook sheds and the like.

I had a washer bottle already and remembered some Misting nozzles I had from a home watering system. I figures these would not produce the fine fog that many commercial systems would produce but also figured that many of the stated performance benefits they offered were not what I was after anyway. I got some clear vinyl hose and rigged the plastic water nozzle to the washer bottle and found it gave what I thought was a quite acceptably fine spray. The output of around 300Ml a minute was perhaps a little on the high side for my engine size but all the charts I had seen were written for petrol engines. I had also seen that diesel engines were capable of digesting up to 6 times more water than fuel.

I tested the system on my small diesel air-cooled engine and set the nozzle up so only half the spray went in the inlet. The 400cc engine happily digested this amount of water for about 10 minutes and I found the engine had a different note to it after the spray which first concerned me but I then noticed I could override the governor and it accelerated under load much better.

Satisfied killing my engine was reasonably unlikely, I made a bracket as equally crude as the rest of the system to hold the nozzle over the intake manifold and wired the pump into the Automatic gearbox kick down switch. I did put a non return valve in the line but the only one I had was very restrictive so I eliminated it.
The water spray activates as soon as I put my foot flat to the Floor which as every non turbo Merc 300D owners knows, is from the time you get in the car till the time your foot hits the ground when you get out. My washer bottle is around 3L and needs to be upgraded to about 5 or 10 if I can find the space for the bottle.

I made some test runs around the block and a number of times up a local hill. For the first few kilometers I could sense no difference in the way the engine went or sounded and didn’t really expect to. I figured any crud would take a while to be softened and blown out but the main point of my tests was to confirm that the engine was not going to be adversely affected more than anything else.

I came home, noted nothing had fallen apart or damaged anything else and that the water was in fact being consumed. I topped up the water bottle and went out for some more test runs. As I pulled out my driveway going up the slight hill I noticed what I thought to be a little extra pep in the engine but wrote this off to wishful thinking or just that the engine had reached a happy operating temp. As I went for some subsequent runs up the hill I thought I spotted some smoke for the exhaust which my car never does under power but due to the dark window tint the previous owner put on, it was difficult to tell if this also was imagined.

I was beginning to thing by this time that the car was already going better and actually giving an ever so slight push in the back. I put this down to a probably favorable wind direction and thought I’d try some timed runs on the weekend. I drove the car around 4 more days till the weekend and by this time I was sure as the sun would rise that the car was running better.

On the weekend I went to a local now deserted industrial area and went for some test drives.
I made 3 runs each way along the test road. Fuel used was my usual blend of 20% unleaded, 80% WVO. All tests were run back to back without switching off the engine with an untimed run both ways in between changing water/methanol mixes to clear the pump and lines of any residual mix from the past test and stabilize engine temp which stayed very constant throughout the test.

The tests were run in the order listed below. First 100% Water (W100) then a 50-50 water meth mix (M50), 75% meth (M75) then no water (W0) and finally a second test of water only. The amount of liquid injected on all tests was the same and nothing other than emptying the remaining fluid from the previous test and refilling the supply bottle was done. The rate of liquid flow into the engine was approx 330 CC per minute.

3 runs each way were made along the test road from the same start point at each end of the road. The runs were from a standing start to 60 Km/h with the auto in drive and the accelerator held flat to the floor so as to keep the kickdown active right through the runs. I was hoping to do 80 Km/h runs but this was cutting things a bit fine for braking and after repeated tests to 60, the brakes were starting to get very hot just from that speed. Some other tests showed better times by holding the gears in low range but this was really revving the engine out and for the sake of more real world driving and testing error reduction, the gearbox was left in “D”.

On the times shown, the fastest and slowest run on each test were disregarded and the remaining four times were averaged.
The greatest variance in times was with water only. Two runs were done with W100 being the first and the last set of runs done. This was done to see what if any difference factors such as engine and gearbox heating may have created as well as weather factors. Similar variations in times were noted on both tests however the average run times differed by just a fraction over 1/10th of a second. Well within testing error and showing that the tests were very consistent and with a minimum of variables.

A test with 100% Methanol was abandoned due to the pronounced “ knocking” noise from the engine produced in the tests when running M75.

0-60Km/h average times.
No water 10.17
W100 9.75 sec
M50 7.83
M75 7.46
W100#2 9.63

While the margins here may be relatively small, it should be kept in mind that these differences were relatively slow and short runs to 60 Km/h only instead of the more standard 0-100 test.
The difference from the slowest average time of 10.17 with no water compared to the fastest average of 7.46 with M75 is a huge difference in itself and would be even more significant in a 0-100 test. (Anyone know how to work out the Percentage improvement?)

I believe based on these short run tests, a traditional run to 100Km/h would show far greater differences and benefits between the different test and mix times.
The improvement in acceleration with the methanol is simply due to the fact that exrtra fuel is being added to the engine. Were the engine tuned for max power so the IP was delivering all the fuel the engine could burn, The differences would be greatly less.

What was most surprising to me was the fact that water alone had such a performance effect. Months after having fitted the water system, I can now tell when the bottle is empty not so much by a drop in power but just a feeling of the engine going off song and losing an amount of drivability especially out of slow corners.

I have now had this rough and ready system on my beloved Merc for almost 4 months and the car seems to still be ever so slightly performing better. I haven’t run the meth since these tests early in January but keep the water bottle full.
I am still running different blends of fuel and although I have never removed anything from the engine to check, I have no doubts the engine is running deposit and buildup free and is in a lot cleaner condition now than when I got it.

For me the water has provided a measure of insurance and comfort and I am 110% satisfied it works without question in keeping Diesel engines free of buildup and even adds a tiny performance increase.
I DO NOT believe it aids fuel economy although it is a possibility. On a turbo engine I believe the performance benefits through a denser air charge may be a lot more significant.

I am in the process of fitting a much better flowing air cleaner than the stock MB item and will be fitting a larger water tank and a proper brass misting nozzle to the system. I don’t know if this will help any or not but it certainly can’t hurt. The crude system I made for virtually nothing has worked beyond expectation so far.
While I believe a very fine misting system may have benefits, the relatively course spray I have used works very well anyhow. In my observation the airstreams tends to break up and evaporate the water droplets on their way into the engine and the Indirect injection system used by Mercedes means that most of the water is probably flashed to vapor before it hits the cylinder proper. On my air-cooled diesel engine I have set up a drip type system of water “ injection” and this has run many hours now and seems to be working perfectly as well. I think droplet size is less important than the fact the water is there in the first place.

Water injection seems to be an extremely under explored way of preventing buildup and other problems in Diesel engines, especially those using Veg oils but its properties potentially solve a lot of possible problems.
I am normally skeptical of engine add on’s and miracle cures but no one could convince me water injection doesn’t work and work dam well.

As a basic but effective system can be set up for next to nothing and costs nothing to run, it has to be worth a try for anyone who may be considering giving it a go.

 
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<DCS>
posted
A pic of the washer Bottle and Pump.
No expense or High-Tec soloutions spared here! Big Grin
 
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my undstanding is you should do you best to get the spray into the intake POST turbo. Those water droplets are not moving fast but those turbo blades are spinning at light speed thus potential for damage to the turbo blades smashing at these speeds into the water droplets will cause damage, maybe not immediate but much sooner than you would want.


_________________________
If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT;

But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well.
 
Location: North Tx | Registered: November 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I used the "find" button at the top of the main forum page, that way you search both the vegoil and the biodiesel forums, entered "water injection" and got 35 pages of individual past posts on the subject.

I intend to try this myself on my 92 Dodge Cummins this summer if I can ever find the spray nozzle I bought for this test. I intend to use a shurflo pump set to 60-70 pounds pressure and a nozzle that is rated at 1 G/H at 100 pounds for starters, from reading other hop-up sights that amount of water is far less then can be used but it will work for the initial testing. My intention is also to use this for engine cleaning rather than performance. In reading the hop-up sights, they say it takes a LOT of water before you actually see any exhaust temp cooling, I had hoped the water might bo better than that as I see upwards of 1050 deg f 2 inches past the turbo on very long hills when heavily loaded in hot weather.

I will inject the spray right after the intercooler, this is an easy place to get to in the engine compartment and is almost 2 feet before the intake manifold, all the water should be evaporated into the air by than so the air will be cooled considerably and no liquid will be entering the cylinders. I may try some ethanol blends, maybe even some 40% hydrogen peroxide/water/eth blends, should be interesting anyway.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A machinist buddy of mine has built several gasoline vapourisation carburetor systems and has seen an average of at least double the gas mileage. You'd have to get veggie pretty hot to vaporise it. Melting hoses and frying IPs might be problem.

Anyway, I remember him telling me that in WW2, they used to use a squirt of water into the air intake of fighter planes to boost power. He said that eventually, the squirts (literally, not a mist) of water would pit the combustion chamber of the planes engine. Misting is likely a good long term safety measure to avoid this kind of cavitation.

The max allowable water content spec on german svo is there for a reason: small enough droplets do neglible cavitation damage. I have no idea what the droplet size threshold is, but the water in svo spec is something like 700 ppm, I think. Similar principles likely apply in the air intake side of things too.

Adios Amigos!
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
Welder,
I would seriously question your suggestion that the spec of water in SVO has anything to do with water injection. Water in fuel has several problems such as cavitation in the IP, Lack of lubrication in the IP and other associated problems with rust in a number of components.

Water injected as we are talking about goes into the inlet on the engine and has nothing to do with the fuel system. Water will erode turbo blades moving at around supersonic speed but there is nothing water can erode when injected into the inlet side of an engine.

Obviously I'm too young to have any first hand knowledge about WWII aircraft engines but I find the description of pitting of the combustion chamber to be difficult to logicaly fathom. My experience with water leads me to believe that even shot into the intake of an engine, the water would be broken up in the air stream and if it were straight shot into the cylinder, it would be pretty unlikely to get past the valve without hitting it and being broken up.

Also my understanding is that fighter aircraft engines were neither built for long life and the ones that did survive a decent number of sorties had to be overhauled before too many hours. Given these engines short overhaul hours, I find it unlikely that a cylinder would be pitted in that time by water.

Given that they ran these engines to a power level only slightly below what the engine would tolerate before destruction, there would probable be a lot of other things that would cause cylinder damage besides water injection.

I have seen myself 50 gallon water injection tanks in the wheel wells of a Super Constellation airliner with huge radial engines. I was told by a pilot of this aircraft that the engines would be severly damaged at takeoff power without the water injection which being a petrol engine, was supposed to controll detonation caused by the supercharger boost levels and keep tempratures in check. I believe these engines run an alcohol mix which would also assist with making power.

Certainly on an airliner engine reliability and longevity would be an issue so I am sure the designers of these engines did not believe it had any detrimental effects on the engine.

I do agree that a fne spray of water is better than a stream. Even on a most basic and simple system like I am running, it is not hard to spray the water. Finer droplets would atomise better and probably be better in some respects to the rather corse spray I am getting.

I have also tried pouring water straight down the intake of several engines and on every one I have seen the water broken up just by the induction airstream which I believe greatly adds to the atomisation of the water.

Tim,
I have read on several sites that water injection has little to no effect on EGT's. I surmise the flame in the cylinder burns the same with or without the water and as some people suggest the water can create some rise in cylinder pressure, the extra heat that would be created from higher compression may explain why the EGT's don't show a lot of difference.
 
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Hi DCS!

When I mentioned the max allowable water spec for svo in Germany, I already knew that it was mainly addressing the issue of cavitation in IPs and/or injectors.

The parallel I was trying to draw was in comparing water causing cavitation in an oil filled IP versus the eventual cavitation that the plane mechanics noticed developing in the combustion chambers WW2 fighter planes was that if water is added in a stream instead of a mist, water can eventually "cavitate" or "erode" the combustion chambers of automotive engines also. Just because you have been adding water to your air intake for 6 months or so, it doesn't mean that no dammage is being done. Micro damage is cumulative and may not be noticeable for some time. I'd guess that the average RPMs in a WW2 fighter planes engine are likely significantly higher than your engines average operating RPMs.

I'm not saying that you're damaging anything. All I'm saying is that I though I read in your posts that you have used BOTH a fine mist water injection system AND a simple drip water system. The point is that a fine mist is likely safer over the long term than large drops of water would be. Perhaps I read your posts wrongly and misunderstood your statements.

I think what you are doing is GREAT and I really appreciate your posted info. I wasn't trying to pick a fight, I was only offering a friendly word of caution that since a stream of water squirted directly into the air intake valves of WW2 era fighter planes DID eventually cause damage, it might be safer to atomise any water added to the air intake of any other engine in order to reduce the chances of sustaining cumulative engine damage.

As I said before I am really impressed by your posted info, and I think it is potentially an excellent preventative measure to avoid carbon build-up in a CI engine. As you put it we can "steam clean" the interiors of our engines"! I'd love to see a mechanic pull apart an engine suspected of having carbon deposits built up, then take pictures to prove the carbons initial presence, then re-assemble the engine and run it for a year or so with water injection, then pull it apart again so we could see "before and after" photos.

Adios!
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Great thread! I have been blending for about a year now and my only real concern has been that of coking my rings. I remember in my younger days that mechanics would pour water or trans fluid in the carb of gassers to loosen carbon buildup. If water injection can remedy/prevent carbon buildup in my Benz that would be great.

My question is this: Does the water injection need to take place at or near full throttle or can it be injected while highway cruising? What I'm thinking is if I could turn it on (to inject) for 10 miles of my 40 mile commute. Would this be as beneficial as a few Italian tune ups with H2O injection?

Am I correct in understanding that all that is really needed is a small pump, a water reservoir and a misting/fogging head installed post turbo, and some method for triggering it? I know my son told me he could put h2o injection on his ricer with just a windshield washer pump some hose and a nozzle. Is this that simple?

Sorry for all the questions but this is a very interesting thread.


Muleears
Hampton Roads, VA USA
85 MB 300D, 260K mi. and 83 300SD 158 mi. WVO Blend
Very tolerant wife

 
Registered: May 22, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Water injection works and it works well. Place the water injection jet after the turbo and after the intercooler. In the Dodges 5.9 Cummins I have done I installed the jets in the pipe that runs from the intercooler to the air horn on the intake manifold. On the older Powerstrokes w/out intercooler we put the jets right after the turbo. I did one older 6.5 Chevy and we put it right after the turbo before the intake.

Don't place the water jet before the turbo or you WILL be replacing it. Over time the water acts as an abrasive and wears the edge of the impeller fins down. Decreases turbo efficiency and puts metal in the cylinder. Water in the atmosphere is small enough it is not a problem but when you are dumping 12 oz a minute right before the turbo it will wear it down quickly.

Water injection in a diesel does exactly what DCS wanted to do. It cleans the combustion chamber. It will also cool the combustion chamber so to much might not be a good thing. When the water evaporates and expands Aquamist states a .5 increase in compression ratio. Their statement not mine.

Muleears - Please do not do the washer pump water/meth injection or do it if you want but the washer pumps will not atomize well enough. You are after a super fine mist like what would come out of a Windex bottle or equivalent. Much finer than a fuel injector.

If anyone needs any help or advise please shoot me an e-mail or we can do it here. I can dig out all of my old documentation and help anyone design or talk you through an install. I set up several Hot Shot haulers in TX set up water/meth injection systems that could be turned on/off or automatically when needed. Most of them wanted them for long mountain hauls when going up to Colorado but some of them ran them all of the time. You can also trigger off of boost, EGT, throttle position, etc. These systems required a lot of water. Most of them mounted an extra tank (Jazz fuel cell or the like) just for the water.

HTH,


Shane Lowrance
'97 E350 PSD over 40K on blend
'74 Bronco with a Cummins 4bt. 10K on the blend
'91 350SDL Benz 60K on the blend

My blend:
122 gallon of clean WVO.
30 Gallon of K1 (clear kerosene)
1 gallon of Naphtha (antigel)
1 gallon of pure Turpentine (cetane booster)
.5 gallon of Acetone (injector cleaner)
and ~1/8 gallon each of silver and white Diesel Kleen

Oil is centrifuged down to .5 micron for junk and water removal. Thinners mixed in at room temp.
 
Location: TX | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This thread http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=...ight=water+injection

Discussed in detail the results of water injection on a 5cyl Benz turbodiesel. Results were interesting.

How far before the intake manifold shoud the nozzle be placed? I have a MB 300D Turbo with the turbo on one side and the intake on the other. The long crossover pipe would be an ideal site for the nozzle, correct?


Muleears
Hampton Roads, VA USA
85 MB 300D, 260K mi. and 83 300SD 158 mi. WVO Blend
Very tolerant wife

 
Registered: May 22, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Muleears,

The further from the intake the better as it gives the mist a chance to absorb the heat and mix with the air intake charge. I assume the MB does not have an intercooler so you can place it as close to the output of the turbo as possible.

That being said you can place the water jet right at the intake and it will only slightly decrease the efficiency of the water/meth injection.

HTH,


Shane Lowrance
'97 E350 PSD over 40K on blend
'74 Bronco with a Cummins 4bt. 10K on the blend
'91 350SDL Benz 60K on the blend

My blend:
122 gallon of clean WVO.
30 Gallon of K1 (clear kerosene)
1 gallon of Naphtha (antigel)
1 gallon of pure Turpentine (cetane booster)
.5 gallon of Acetone (injector cleaner)
and ~1/8 gallon each of silver and white Diesel Kleen

Oil is centrifuged down to .5 micron for junk and water removal. Thinners mixed in at room temp.
 
Location: TX | Registered: December 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Since we already heat our veggie in order to get better fuel atomization, why not rig up a heat exchanger in between the water pump and spray head? That might help reduce the temperature difference between the cold water and the hot air. There's gotta be enough heat left in the coolant to heat up a small stream of injection water.

Since my engine is a 1988 7.3 L IDI non-turbo, I don't really have to worry about getting my water near the temp of the incoming air because it is naturally aspirated so the air isn't getting heated by a turbo or by the air heaters found on a Dodge Cummins. Ford uses International motors with glow plugs, not air heaters like the Cummins.

I've thought of rigging up some sort of DC toaster element on my air intake to help preheat the air and hopefully enhance combustion. Maybe I can rig up some sort of small, circular radiator inside my air intake so that waste engine heat will pre-heat my air before it even gets my pre-heated water atomised into it!

Should water for injection be distilled, or does it really matter that much? I wouldn't want mineral deposits to eventually build up on the insides of my combustion chambers etc.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
Hello Welder,
Thank you for your reply. Perhaps it is I that should be apologising if I misunderstood what you were saying. I realise you were not trying to pick a fight and I am sure you realise I was not either, just trying to put a perspective on some info I thought may have not been accurate.

I most certainly agree with you that a fine spray of water is far superiour to a solid jet. I also would like to see the before and after experiment you suggest. I was going to do just that with a small industrial engine that someone here pointed out that the 2-stroke I was going to dio it with would be different to a 4-stroke likein a car as the rings of the 2-stroke are exposed to the incoming air where as a 4 stroke never is. As I don't have any 4 stroke engines around, I haven't bothered with what would amount to a pointless test.

One thing I do wonder about though, with all the people using and blowiing up Diesel cars running on Veg, why Have I never seen any pics of an old engine showing the condition of the internals?
Surely with all the people in the world now running veg, someone has to have stripped an engine that has a reasonable amount of miles on it. They may be out there but I have never yet seen a pic of an engine that has sufferend ring coking or any of the other proposed maladies that veg oil is supposed to cause. Obviously having taken steps to prevent it, I'm not saying it can't/dosen't happen, I just haven't seen any pics showing the end results where it has.

You do not want to be heating you water or air.
Part of the benifit of WI is to cool the incoming air charge which allows it to be denser. This can give more power and may slightly lower EGT's. You could heat the air to assist in starting but once running the cooler the air you can get into the engine the better. The turbo puts plenty of heat into the air through compressing it and what is radiated. The purpose of intercoolers that High performance cars run is to remove as much of the heat in the incoming air charge as possible. WI is verry effective at this and a lot cheaper and easier to install.

Muleears,

I have the water Pump switched by the Automatic kickdown switch that is under the throttle pedal. This activates the water only at full power which on a non turbo Benz could be as much of the time on as not. Roll Eyes
You could set the switch point lower if your water flow was appropriate. I wouldn't kick it in below half throttle myself as there wouldn't be a lot of point anyway.

On a turbo car, if you were using something like a washer pump, you would want to rig it in a sealed bottle so you could tap a line that recieved boosted air into the bottle to equalise the air pressure in the water bottle against the boost pressure so the pump didn't have to work against it. I very much doubt that a washer pump would make even 5 PSI like I imagine the turbo would.

I do not believe that a super fine mist is nessacary, particularly if you are injecting will upwind of the engine but a finer mist would be prefrable to a corse one to a point.
 
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So the water needs to be injected while the engine is under significant load? I was thinking of a momentary switch to use when at highway speeds. That way I wouldn't forget and leave it on.


Muleears
Hampton Roads, VA USA
85 MB 300D, 260K mi. and 83 300SD 158 mi. WVO Blend
Very tolerant wife

 
Registered: May 22, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Muleears:
So the water needs to be injected while the engine is under significant load? I was thinking of a momentary switch to use when at highway speeds. That way I wouldn't forget and leave it on.


Use the kickdown switch on your Benz to turn on the water injector - you only hit it when you floor it!
 
Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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