quote:

Originally posted by wvoalaska:
Sorry if I missed this buried somewhere in the thread, but what kind of water are you guys injecting? Are you buying distilled water (over a buck a gallon in Anchorage) or just using what comes out of the tap?

How much does windshield washer fluid run in Anchorage? Just because the water burns out, doesn't mean that the stuff in the water won't burn out. Cheap WWF would be the best. Make sure to shake it before you buy it. Bubbles are bad. That means soap, and it's not something you want running through your engine.

Don't go over 50% methanol or you can get some detonation.

Best way to judge amount of fuel needed is to find the amount of fuel used, and then find 10-15% of that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaman,

I'll have to check. I think it's around $3.50-4.50 per gallon. Not something I would want to be running a lot of through my engine. But I'm a cheapo and I don't care much about power boost. I just want to go the most miles on the least amount of money.

quote:

Originally posted by Longboard:
DCS et all,
I have gone through these posts and can't seem to find any detailed info on how to actually rig up a simple system. I tend to lean towards DCS's simplistic sounding system. Is there a way to find out how to do this on my '83 SD 117?

I am thinking of making a spacer plate that goes between the EGR and intake manifold that has a nozzle pointing into the opening. That seems like the easiest way to inject water into the intake (post turbo) of an OM617 without drilling any holes in the intake. Another benefit would be that I could even use it as a block off plate for the EGR. Why does a Diesel need an EGR anyway?

Another suggestion for testing out your mix. Pour whatever you plan to run in the car into a pan. Turn the heat on until it all cooks away. That’s what you will have left if you use it in your car.

quote:

Originally posted by Shaman:
Another suggestion for testing out your mix. Pour whatever you plan to run in the car into a pan. Turn the heat on until it all cooks away. That’s what you will have left if you use it in your car.

What are you trying to say??

Nonvolatile sediments and precipitates. Crud that gets left behind once the water has evaporated, which could potentially build up in your engine and cause damage. This was a factor in my evaporatively cooled Changfa 195 before I converted it to recirculating radiator cooling. With hopper cooling, heavy water buildup occurs in the cooling system internals as the water evaporates and leaves water soluble precipitates behind. With water injection into the intake, the precipitates could potentially coat your engine internals with a surface film buildup. Distilled water and water/alcohol mix would not leave buildups, while mineral water could do so over time.

Regarding mineral buildups, I have given this some thought and I don't think it would be anywhere near what you would get with an evaporative cooling setup, because much (or all) of the water is already in tiny particulates, which would mean that most of the minerals would never touch the internals of the engine; they would be pushed out as super-fine dust with the rest of the exhaust.

With evaporative cooling, basically all of the minerals are left behind as a coating.

That's not to say you wouldn't have problems eventually using water with high mineral content, but I would guess that the benefits would outweigh the risks. I would love to see some research results on this (if I had the time and money, I'd do it myself).

I found a neet way to get my windshield washer back on my 190D!(I am using it for the water injection). I found a washer tank from a later 190 or other model Benz that has 2 pumps (the other for the headlights), and it fits right in the same place as the old one. Now I can have both water injection, and windshield washing as long as I don't mind using the same fluid for both (water and alcohol).

I have a way to make a system for my 1980 300SD. It has the pump motor seperate from the tank, so I am going to "T" the hose from the washer tank and hook up another pump (wrecking yard find) for the water injection.

I remember windshield washer tanks and washer pumps being used back in the 70s, in fact i still have one made by Spearco. the best of systems would be to have the droplets turn to steam,(not vapor) before entering the chamber, or better turn to steam just after entering cham. much less volume required. ALA. heated water before like 205* in line to injector. last but not least water directly into chamber, YES! very diffcult. but the ultimate. Thx Ron

WVOBENZS - the 617 doens't need the EGR. If you go to www.mercedesshop.com and visit the forums and search for egr replacement you'll find a thread that covers all the bases and some guy even sells a kit to replace it.

HI! WVOBENZ, you actually have one of those Eagles by AMC WOW! I read where the 2009 Cadillac will get a VM turbodiesel. 2.9L 290hp. Thx Ron

quote:

Originally posted by Shaman:
Another suggestion for testing out your mix. Pour whatever you plan to run in the car into a pan. Turn the heat on until it all cooks away. That’s what you will have left if you use it in your car.

That is not at all an accurate test.
The way I got into this whole Running your vehicle on veg thing was through researching using WVO as burner fuel for a pool heater I wanted to build. I have done a LOT of testing on burning veg ( and other oils) and feel I am pretty knowledgeable in it.

One thing I had a lot of trouble with in understanding how you could use WVO as a fuel in a vehicle engine was because of tests I had done and what I had learned through them.

We all know there are thousands of vehicles covering Millions of miles on straight WVO so it must work.
The thing is, If you get a pan and put WVO in it and burn it over an open fire, It will get hot to the point it will self ignite and burn. When it goes out,it will leave a crusty, sticky goo. Th is stuff is hard to burn off with even a blow torch. If you have an oven you can put it in that gets hot enough to burn that residue to completion ( yes, I have one) Or even keep it over a fire long enough, the carbon like material will burn to a fine dust just like the common grey wood ash we have all seen.

My dilemma was, where does all this ash go if you are burning tens of gallons of WVO inside an engine?

Diesel, kero, methanol, petrol and turps will all burn to nothing. WVO will leave an ash deposit maybe 5-10% of its original liquid volume.
My point here is, the test of putting the injection solution in a pan and evaporating it away cannot be relied on as a test. Do that with what you are putting in your fuel tank be it WVO, SVO, Blend or Bio, and they will fail this test too!

I don't actually know where the residue from the wvo goes to allow engines to not clag up to this day. As it is burned in the suspension of the gasses in the cylinder, My summation is that it is blown out the exhaust as Particulate matter they talk about these days. I imagine an amount ends up in the oil as well which in my belief, would be more significant reason to change your oil AND filter than this other veg fear of Polermisation. (My car AT is well past its Normal oil change date and I have been checking the oil closely and it is as "oily" as ever but thats another story).

I think what matters more is where the injection solution evaporates and specifically what is in it. If it stays as liquid till it hits the cylinder and is evaporated there in the turbulence of the combustion Chamber where it can stick to nothing, there is no problem. If it evaporates in the manifold, then any deposits may far from unnecessarily undergo a cumulative buildup. It may also happen that proceeding liquid may hit that spot such as when the engine is cooler or at lower RPM's and wash any proceeding film away to be evaporated in the cylinder where it will do no harm. Running water only Say distilled water in mineralized tap water areas) may be a good practice every so many tankfuls as a way of eliminating this potential problem as well. Sources Of " Injection water could be gained from a downpipe going into a barrel from a shed roof, Melting snow on the stove or a stream or clean river.

Why would anyone want to use windscreen washer Fluid?
Methylated Spirits would be infinitely better suited for this app and here in Oz at least, is available in every corner grocery store, petrol station or supermarket!

As for drilling holes in the intake to inject the water, I just drilled one in the air cleaner Cover about 1/4" or so. to " remove" this hole, all I have to do is put a piece of tape or a decal over it. I could also put a small nut and bolt there, a rubber plug, tack it with my MIG welder or probably 20 other simple and easy things that would cost next to nothing or the ultimate solution, go buy another cover from the wrecker which couldn't cost much at all.

I also noticed on the manifold of my non turbo 300D, the ends of the manifold are capped with what appears to be common welsh plugs. I have wondered about removing the front one and fitting some pipe and another air cleaner to help breathing. It would also be a perfect place to mount a water injector at one or either end and simple and cheap to patch with another plug if you wanted to take if off.

original message self-deleted due to idiocy

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Drayton:
WVOBENZS - the 617 doens't need the EGR.

Yes, I figured it is not needed. I thought that would be a good place for a nozzle, so no holes would need to be drilled in the manifold.

quote:

Originally posted by ronbros:
HI! WVOBENZ, you actually have one of those Eagles by AMC WOW! I read where the 2009 Cadillac will get a VM turbodiesel. 2.9L 290hp. Thx Ron

Here is a photo:

hi all, great read (took over an hr to read all posts) and well done on the WI, DIY systems. some great idears out there.
have you seen the WI or I/c spray controler at
http://autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=107797

its called the "new intellegent intercooler water injection controler" and is baced on a simple circuit for a fuel mixture LED display circuit that has been modified for water injection controle. can be used as a intercooler sprayer or direct water injection systems.
it basicaly only allows water injection if
a) boost level is above a preset level AND
b) intercooler or air temp is above another preset level.
both levels are adjustable so you can tune the injection fairly precicly to your requirements. it senses the boost level of the vehicle using a map sensor or it can use a throtle position sensor, and a thermistor to sense the intercooler sensor. i have made the unit as per the website and it works realy well, only uses water when needed so very eficient on water/alcohol use.
i like the idear of using boost presure to pump the water, hmmm might need to look into that one. the same controler could be used but have it swith on a solenoid for the spray instead of a pump. or use a a/c compressor to preasurise an air tank that will provide the required water preasure for the system. or is this getting to complicated?
just my 2 cents worth
martin

While The controller would allow greater control of the water injection, I personally feel it is an over complication. I can see where it would great in it's intended design for petrol Vehicles but for WI on a Diesel, I think it is overkill.

I have just bought a second Merc and I am going to fit the WI system exactly the same as on my first car because it simply works and works with no problem what so ever. There are some small modifications I am going to make from my original veg conversion where I can see improvements but the WI has been perfect from the start so nothing broke, nothing to fix!

If your using the WI for cleaning, You don't want to economize on the water. To do so simply means less cleaning. If the water injection rate was too high in water consumption, you could easily use a smaller nozzle to save water but that seems a moot point. You want cleaning water regardless of the engine temp.
That said, I recommend the water be used only after the engine is up to temp but this function could be done with a $2 thermo snap switch located somewhere strategically like on the head or FPHE if one were fitted.

If you are using the WI for extra power, Wiring it to the kick down switch or a simple adjustable pressure switch as a friend uses on his system, does the job fine.
Diesels have a much wider tolerance to WI than petrol cars and IMHO, simply don't need the same elaborate type of controls.

While some people are hell bent on complicating things for reasons they have dreamt up rather than actually exist or there being an actual problem to overcome, I'm still using my simple WI setup and it's still working perfect. The only problem I have encountered is a blocked plastic nozzle through putting some dirty water in the tank but I replaced the Nozzle I use at a cost of Whopping .50 C and all was well again!

A friend recently built and fitted a system to his Jap Turbo Diesel and is seeing a drop of OVER 100oC in the inlet temps. He says he cant tell any performance difference and when he tried Methanol, the engine nailed quite a bit so he gave that away. He is most impressed with the inlet temp drop and that the water will keep his engine clean of deposits.

The System is actuated with a simple adjustable pressure switch which he set a little on the low side initially to get the most cleaning effect and then when the overall performance level tapered off, he wound the switch up a bit so the WI kicks in at a higher boost and the water is conserved a bit more on longer trips when boost levels are consistently higher.

While the controller may offer benefits to some Veg users with specialist and I would say unusual circumstances or requirements, I believe the greatest majority of people could happily use much simpler, cheaper and straightforward systems while still getting all the benefits WI can offer.

The simpler the system, the less to go wrong.