I believe you are right. Water is not a fuel and so does not add a power increase in itself. The effects within the engine and it's ancillaries because of it's presence however can provide significant performance increases especially when the property's the water creates are taken advantage of.

Straight water injection in my Benz takes half a second off the 0-35Mph time. I have tested this on a number of occasions under different conditions and the results are typically the same.

I have tested it on the dyno. The HP and torque curves are identical with nothing and with pure water. It was only when a 50/50 (by weight) mixture of water and methanol is used that the power curves went up.

Sorry if I missed this buried somewhere in the thread, but what kind of water are you guys injecting? Are you buying distilled water (over a buck a gallon in Anchorage) or just using what comes out of the tap?

Is there an issue with mineral buildup, or is that not a concern because the water is vaporized prior to contact with any surfaces it could build up on?

I am sure some cars would react differently to water injection the same as they would react to any other Mod. Some will benefit, others will not. My car gets a definite performance increase when straight water is used. Other vehicles may not have any change but it would be wrong to assume all cars will be the same as one or another.

I use ordinary tap Water.
Where I live there is no problem with minerals in the water but I have been places that do have this issue. In these places it would be wise to use rain water captured in a tank or buy distilled water to stop any mineral buildup and the potential damage that could be caused if a chunk of this built up matter broke off and went through the engine.

OK, I'm on engin'er and I could not bear reading any more flames going back and forth so I jumped ahead a bit and it seems like it's the same @$ still going on.

Any way - First you need to decide what you're shooting for, lower EGT - combustion chamber cleaning - more power ?

Water dose expand 1600X - from liquid to vapor, but if it vaporizes before entering the engine it only cools the air charge making it denser but not adding much in the way of exhaust volume (power). Mostly useful if you want more air (O2)for extra fueling. If you want it to really help increase exhaust volume it must get in the engine as a liquid up to a certain point beyond which you would start to loose power (flame quench). Probably not a good idea for continuous use - remember the WW2 air plane engines ?

Now if you what to cool your EGT's you need a WHOLE LOT more water (The point at which some say you should add water/meth to for max performance and EGT cooling in trucks - add mix till it bogs then back off a little). You are trying to cool thousands of BTU's going thru the engine. There for you need to balance the heat load with the right amount of water. Obviously a bigger truck engine would need more water then a small car engine. Also from my research you want the foggers as close to the intake as reasonable to get liquid in the engine as it's the conversion from water to steam that uses the heat and cools the combustion. Lets not also forget that alcohol burns cooler (and cleaner) than oil.
Now this will also slow the start of ignition of the fuel slightly as the water/moister will pull heat to it, as it can hold much more BTU's for a given amount than air and will dampen the flame allowing for MORE FUEL to be added making more power. It's not just the peak pressure but also the average pressure of the power stroke in an engine that results in the total power it produces. The longer the burn the more power transfered up to a point.

Now if all you want to do is help clean your insides then just reduce the amount of water from either of the above as all moister in the air charge will turn to steam doing some cleaning in the process. The more water the more steam, the more cleaning up to a point, just like cleaning the outside with a steam cleaner.

A few things to keep in mind - any moister will help a engine run better since fuel is a hydrocarbon and water added to HC's at high temp causes a catalytic reaction (high pressure may help push this effect) that cracks part of the water and helps burn what would normally be unburned carbon/fuel (no engine burns 100% of it's fuel, that's why there's smog). So if you get just the right amount of moister in your engine it will BURN MORE OF IT"S FUEL ! Also the more fuel the more water you can burn so having an adjustable WI is a good idea if you want to MAXIMIZE your engines potential but then it could get complicated.

One last thing - extra moister going in to an engine = more moister going past the rings, more moister in the crankcase = more acid in your motor oil !

I'm sure all *&^% will break loose now, so let the fun begin !

Nice one Brew-it! Glad to have a professional opinion.

I mist to supposedly clean my cylinders. Used to mist with the standard washer pump and an 15gal/hr at 100Psi mister. It was too much water I think - the engine kinda bogged and rattled. SO I put on a 5gal/hr which sprays about 175ml/min. Not quite enough. I think probably around 7-10gal/hr would be right. Next order from McMaster I'll get some more misters.

Brew-it - could you give an estimate of the optimal cleaning dosage for something like a 67HP 2.4l normally aspirated engine like the mercedes 616? I've heard anything from 200-300cc/min is the way to go, but that was for meth boost. THanks.

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the kind words but like I said I'm not edjicated, just some basic understanding of the processes involved.

Myself- I plan on installing air bags on my truck so I will have air to use to run a pressurized water system with brass cool misters from home dip-$#!t, installed just in front of the intake manifold. From what I've read 3 or 4 misters will do the job (for max power) and with the air I can adjust as needed. So 1 should be plenty for you to clean with.

It's all trial and error as each engine will have it's own inherent quirks. The CC's you list are for what RPM ? WOT ? Cruising ? As you can see there is no easy answer for me to give as it would require some engineering to come up with a optimum number for any particular amount of fuel at a particular cylinder pressure.

Just make sure it turns off automatically at idle so you don't have to worry about drowning your motor and use an inline needle valve to make basic adjustments and add water till your soot level at the tail pipe drops noticeably (within reason) when you accelerate. Take it for a short drive (15-30 min), pull a glow plug and check to see if it's cleaning and then reduce the amount of water if it is. Remember that steam is a strong solvent and can strip the oil film from the cylinder walls so it's better to error on the low side. I would not want to use much water AT ALL in a constant flow system.

I hope this helps - Eric

Thanks for the advice. I was under the impression that the best time to clean was at WOT, so my questions were about WOT. Is WOT not the best time for steam cleaning or doesn't it make a difference as long as tthe correct amounts of water are injected?

Now for my unedijicated question -

How do you check your soot levels while accelerating?

Fast runner? Skateboard? Long arms?

Last Question: Does Meth/Water mix clean better than plain water?

Pulling a glowplug on an old Merc.....? Dem's fighting words my friend! I'd rather pull an injector!

On my 617 300D I am injecting at around 300cc min at WOT.
I think this may be about the upper limit for my engine. This number was arrived at through it being what the washer pump and nozzle combination provided when I assembled the system and I decided it was around what my research led me to believe was a workable number. 12 months on, I'm still happy with delivery rate.
For the smaller engine, I'd suggest 200-250ML /min.

I normally run plain water but if I am going for a trip along the highway, I usually add around 50% meth as this gives a substantial and much needed performance boost. I don't adjust the system delivery rate.

For cleaning purposes which was the reason I originally fitted the system, I believe WOT delivers sufficient water to keep the cylinders clean. On a non turbo merc, I think most people would spend a bit of time with their foot flat to the floor but if not, You could always set the water to come on earlier.

On my car, I noticed the water took a few days to have any effect which I suppose would amount to only a few hours driving. If I took the thing up the highway, the time the thing spent at WOT may only equate to an hours worth of driving in relation to what it did in those first 3 days although I was peddling it a bit to test the system.
I found the improvement in the cars performance kept increasing for many months. Slight but noticeable improvements.

I don't know about water or meth mix cleaning better. I spose the meth burns off where the water goes through the entire process as it were. The meth may have some solvent properties however given the boiling point of meth, it would be going into the cylinder proper as a gas I suspect when the engine was up to operating temp and probably some time before this as well.

As for checking soot levels, a rear vision mirror was enough for me on one run. I remember one trip, I gunned the engine up a long hill to overtake a truck and as I looked in the mirror I saw this huge black puff of smoke just after the gearbox kicked back and the water/ meth kicked in. It was quite impressive!

Perhaps you could get one of those reversing cameras and point it at the tailpipe?
My car doesn't blow any smoke normally when cruising along or running flat out. I'll have to turn the IP up to fix that!

I think DCS got that one right - look in the mirror. I've never owned one but, everyone I've seen going down the road blew some smoke off the line.
I guess you could hang from the bumper on a skateboard. Or you could always just get a friend to follow you up a hill to put a load on it.

As for what's best, WOT only, would allow the most water to be used hence the most steam to clean.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I was under the impression that water + meth would reduce smoke. Also meth is used in most cans of good carb cleaner.

Just had an interesting flash - Does a WI rig on a really cold day leave a vapor trail like a rocket? Being in the desert I will never find out myself.

Well like I said - I'm no expert.
BTW - My research has been toward my cummins which is my first diesel so my apologies for suggesting the removal of the wrong item.

I installed a WI system on my 190D 2.2 non turbo 5 speed. It normaly would only go up our local mountain pass at about 50 MPH in 4th, and sometimes needing to downshift. After a couple of trips with the WI system installed, it gradgualy improved. It will now get up to 65 MPH in 4th and no downshifting. I would say that is an improvement! I am using water only, with the stock washer bottle as the WI system tank. I put a switch to run the pump at WOT (which is from about the time it is started, to when the engine is turned off!)Seriously, it seems to have more power now with the WI working. I think it was from coking, so the water is doing a good job cleaning.
I am using 2 mister nozzels from an outdoor cooling mister hose. They seem to spray a nice mist into the 4 intake tubes (viewed with the air cleaner off), so I think it is working correctly. I am using distilled water, as the holes are quite small, and I don't want them to clog with minerals. Am I being too cautious about the water? Woult tap water be just as good and not clog the nozzels?

Hello wvobenzs,

Your results sound similar to mine. How long have you had your system installed and do you have any idea how many Ml of water you are roughly Injecting?

If you want to go up that hill at 75, Mix 50% Methanol in your WI system and hold on!

tap water is all I use however, it really depends on where you live. I have a cousin in the country and the water is so mineralized an dripping tap is easy to spot by the stalagmites that get left behind as the water evaporates! You would not want to use tap water like that but I have used nothing but tap water for over a year with no problems whatsoever.

IF you want to keep using distilled water and it's exy where you are, You could always build yourself a solar or even a regular still and make your own. A solar still requires no power or upkeep and will produce distilled water while ever the sun shines.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
Hello wvobenzs,...IF you want to keep using distilled water ...

I may be wrong but I think I heard distilled was bad. It SEEKS minerals and can suck it out of your engine metals. Search on it though.... just something in my mind is remembering a discussion on this.

oh wait.... maybe that was about radiator coolant mixing. I think an MB discussion board. Still something to search on though

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
Hello wvobenzs,

Your results sound similar to mine. How long have you had your system installed and do you have any idea how many Ml of water you are roughly Injecting?

If you want to go up that hill at 75, Mix 50% Methanol in your WI system and hold on!

I have only had it on for a week, and noticed a difference after 50 miles or so .I am not sure how much water the nozzels are spraying, but it seem to be a good amount. I guess the only way I will know for sure is to pull an injector.

I will try the Methanol, but I don't think I need to hold on too tight with only 70 horspower! If it made a huge difference, I would be amazed.

Hello list. First let me say that this information is from memory as the PC that has all of my data on it has taken a dump. Our great great grandfathers were the real masters of using "water injection". Using water to enhance combustion is very old tech. The excepted way it is done today is very crude compared to the way it was done 80-150 years ago. Carbon buildup was a
major problem in engines in that era and they knew the value of free hydrogen for combustion efficiency and for emissions. One of the oldest ways known to produce hydrogen was to flow low pressure steam over iron balls and then into the intake tract of a engine. As the steam flows over the iron balls the oxygen is taken up (oxidation) and the hydrogen is freed. This oxidation will take place with many different metals, some better than others.

The next part of the puzzle is to understand the reason carbon is formed in the cylinder (or the reason why not in this case) with different fuels even when the engine is in perfect tune.. This is called the quenching gap of a given fuel. This relates to the distance from the cylinder wall or combustion chamber that the flame can be sustained. Now, for hydrogen this gap is about .025 in. As the carbon chain is longer in heavy oils this distance expands greatly.

A previous post stated that for every gallon of fuel consumed in a engine there would be 13 gallons of water in the exhaust stream......technically on a gasoline engine it is 1.71 pounds of water per pound of fuel consumed.......on a typical gasoline engine, if you analyze the exhaust gases pre catalytic converter you could find as much as 2% or more hydrogen...(I do not know this information for a diesel)

A previous post made a statement about vacuum cavitation in a carburetor. Our forefathers were very knowledgeable of vacuum cavitation effects on water as well as on fuels.

The major factors that control the temperature of the air in the cylinder under compression that the fuel is injected is the compression ratio and the temperature of the air coming through the intake tract. From memory, diesel fuel auto ignition temperature is 425°F and most VO's are above 800°F.

Exhaust temperatures above about 485°F is a sign of raw fuel burning in the exhaust track.

From memory the flame speed of hydrogen is about 1500 meters per second or about 6-8 times faster than gasoline.

About 1 to 6% free hydrogen has drastic effects on combustion efficiency and emissions....

A properly setup water injection system anyone??

kind regards,
crossbones

WHEW!! just read most of this topic, must be FULL moon, so much of a peein contest as i ever seen. anywho with all the info here it sounds like whatever works for you GO for IT!! Ill read it over, and ad my opinion LOL. by the way there is some damn good info here, if you guys would lighten up a little, and try to see what the other guy is tryin to say. Thx Ron

WOW! I woulda never have guessed my little question would dig up so much response. THANK YOU & keep it coming!(but try to avoid the flame throwing)

quote:

Originally posted by WVOBENZS:

I will try the Methanol, but I don't think I need to hold on too tight with only 70 horspower! If it made a huge difference, I would be amazed.

I think the low starting HP IS exactly the reason you have to hold on... comparatively.
I calculated on My 300D, at 50% Methanol, I am injecting over 10HP worth of extra fuel in the meth only.

This works out at around a 14% performance boost which I always find very significant. Once you drive around on a couple of tanks, as soon as you put normal water back in, it feels like something has gone wrong with the engine.

I don't get too much into the technicalities of why water works and for what. You put it in and it works very well for keeping the engine clean. You mix in 50% meth and it works real well for keeping the engine clean and giving you a few more useful ponies.

I don't try to complicate a simple, effective and low cost solution to those requirements more than that!

DCS et all,
I have gone through these posts and can't seem to find any detailed info on how to actually rig up a simple system. I tend to lean towards DCS's simplistic sounding system. Is there a way to find out how to do this on my '83 SD 117?

Longboard,

Have a look on page 2 of this thread. I pretty much outlined the setup all there.