quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
Juan,

I did not call you an idiot nor do I believe a person is one simply because they have recieved bad infomation, IE, are misinformed.

I apologise for any offence my remarks may have caused. If you are so sure of your information, by all means go with it. I am not going to get into another argument over this with people that have no first hand experience with water injection or believe in things that go against what many other people have long established.

I believe there are to many things you have stated that are incorrect to try to explain so I won't use up space pointing out things that you would not accept anyway.

If you want to believe in site that says injecting before the turbo is OK when all the rest say it is not, its your Turbo, your choice and your money paying the repair bill, not mine.
I am happy for you to prove me wrong because it won't cost me anything either way.

I certainly believe that experimenting along the lines of what you have stated will absoloutley allow you to learn what works and what dosen't, no question about that.

I wish you the best in your endeavours and hope you can make new discoveries that change the accepted practices and methods of water injection for the benifit of everyone.

Hi Juan. While we're pointing out peoples cheap shots, you might want to consider that I never nade any big "exagerations" regarding water injection causing rust. I was only stating a CONCERN for POTENTIAL problems IF an injection system were left on right up to shutdown. As I've said, there IS an actually legitimate application for "always on" water injection. It's called gasoline vapourization carburetion.

Stating a concern isn't the same as making exagerated claims. I NEVER claimed to be a water injection expert. That's why I ask other people on forums for their opinions. Sometimes on a good day, I can learn something that way.

Well the 'system' of having a compressed air tank filled with water supplying a misting nozzle works just as well for post turbo. You still have high enough pressure from your supply to overcome the turbo pressure unlike the windshield washer tank systems. You can still use a boost sensor to activate a supply solenoid.

As for the rest, howsabout we cool some of our own exhaust gasses?

quote:

Originally posted by JuanMooreThyme:
Well the 'system' .... works just as well for post turbo.

Yep, sounds like your best route to take.

hello.
ive just finished reading the whole thread and i have a suggestion...
why not use the wiper reservoir as is and just use a 3 way solenoid to direct the liquid either on the windscreen or (if the gas pedal is pressed down) in the intake?
ofcourse that would use a bit more methanol/water mixture but on the other hand the wiper doesnt consume much ...
(about 1 liter per year for me)

this would make the convention even cheaper :-)

This is a possibility but I would certainly prefer to have them separate. If you were to use the same bottle for both applications, I guess the savings would amount to the difference in cost between a 2nd washer bottle and a solenoid and any extra switches you would need to trigger it.

It is my guess that a used washer bottle for the injection would likely be the cheaper and simpler option but I may be mistaken in what things are available for in the states.

you are probably right... most diagrams ive seen looked like this though:

where is the kick down switch located on a 1980 Mercedes 300sd. I would like to trigger water injection with this switch.

On my '78 300D, the kickdown Switch is located directly under the throttle pedal. I just tapped across it to trigger the water pump as it has it's own power supply. You may be safer using a relay in the circuit.

Has anyone or know of someone who has run WI in a 6.9L International? Non-turbo.

I like the Air bladder system for its simplicity, and less moving parts.

[when Armstrong joined NASA the moon suit had 100+ moving parts. His statement was that it would be a long way from nowhere for some thing to go wrong. They reduced the moving parts down to less than 15.]

I'd say the biggest nuisance of running the steel 'air bladder' is getting the water into the tank.

As I'm running it with just the manual ball valve within reach of the driver's seat, forgetting to turn it off when I'm parked has been an issue a couple of times.
My water mister nozzle is mounted inside my air cleaner housing just below the filter.
I've seen a lot of rust laying on the floor of my air cleaner housing and am wondering how this deposit of iron could negatively affect my piston rings.
When I bought the original 2 gallon air tank that I prototyped this setup with, the seller told me about some product for motorcycle fuel tanks to prevent rusting.

Question, why do you want to install water injection on a naturally aspirated <7L?
What benefit are you seeking?

JuanMooreThyme
Question, why do you want to install water injection on a naturally aspirated <7L?
What benefit are you seeking?

I will be using WVO as my fuel and I most definately want to prevent coking or extra carbons when I can do it so cheaply.

From Turbobill, April, 29 (a few pages back)
1) water indeed decarbonizes the combustion chamber and piston top.

Pre-turbo is NOT good. If you are pressurizing it enough to atomize the fluid where it supposedly won't harm the compressor, it won't take much more effort at all to mount the nozzle post turbo. There are nozzles made specifically for water injection on engines that cost under $20 and surflo pumps can be bought new for under $100 at most agricultural stores. There is no reason at all to buy a $600 electronic gizmo-packed system or cheap out with a washer pump and/or pre-turbo injection.

Water alone will not boost economy. It's good for cleaning the carbon out of the cylinders on a non-turbo engine but that's it. If you want an increase of fuel economy, you must add a fuel such as methanol to the water.

The main reason for water injection is to cool the intake charge on turbo engines for a denser air charge and lower exhaust temperatures. The addition of methanol increases the cooling of the air with a side benefit of slightly more power.

I had water injection properly installed on my car with a surflo pump and 300cc nozzle installed in the intake manifold. Pure water had no gain what-so-ever in power or economy. 50/50 water methanol (mixed by weight) resulted in 2HP increase at the wheels and about 1mpg higher economy. I have a dyno graph of my car to prove my power findings.

LMNDynoresults6-17-2006.jpg (54 KB, 24 downloads)

Hello Zed,

I have discovered that some people are not satisfied with a simple water injection system and have a need to complicate things significantly and bring about a whole buch of problems much more siignificant than the first ones they imagined.
Whatever Floats peoples Boat I guess!

While I certainly agree water alone won't increase economy, I can say even on non turbo engines it does increase power. My non turbo Benz gains a full half second in a 0-60 Km/h run and the addition of 50% meth takes 1.75 sec off this time.

I have no idea what the power increase is as I only made a good number of 2 way timed runs to verify the difference.

Interesting thread. Has anyone tried using a humidifier to create a mist instead of a nozzle??

Ethanol should give even a bit more power. If you have access to E85 fuel, blend 50% E85 with 50% water, the gasoline will drop out of the mix over night. Use the blend, less gasoline, as your injected liquid.

I read this on WI and wonder if it would work...
"Imagine a plastic bottle (like a radiator overflow tank) with a tight seal on the top (if it doesn’t have a tight seal, make it tight, with a rubber gasket). A tube or hose should be placed someplace on the top of the bottle or in the cap. Another tube or hose should be placed at the bottom of the bottle with the inlet just inside the bottom... The other end of the bottom hose, should be placed above the bottle or, at least, even with the top of the bottle. Now, mount the bottle in the engine compartment and fill it ¾ of the way with water. Place your vacuum line on the high vacuum side of the turbo charger. You will know if you have hooked it to the right side by whether or not there is a roar of bubbles in your bottle. Now when the turbo kicks in, the vacuum tube to the turbo will suck air out of the top of the water bottle which should be filled 3/4s with water (or a little more than 3/4). The only way the air can be replaced is if it comes through the other tube which runs out the bottom of the bottle to the atmosphere above the bottle. This will make a roar of bubbles in the air chamber coming from the bottom tube. When the bubbles burst on reaching the top of the water, each bubble will propel a near microscopic droplet of water into the air chamber. With hundreds, or thousands, of droplets bursting on the surface, the air chamber will become super humid. It will become so wet that the air chamber will be all water vapor. The water vapor will of course be sucked into the intake via the turbo." http://www.greaseolineplus.com/page2.html

I have seen this method done before with an air stone in the bottle to make more bubbles and supposedly saturate the air with moisture better.

It would work, but work would be a relative term. It would increase the moisture in the intake air but if it would be enough water to do anything positive would be the question.
Personally, I would think not.
It is going to take a long time to evaporate the water and an amount of vapour added to the engine over that amount of Time it would take to evaporate the water off is probably a whole lot less moisture going into the system than what driving in the rain would add.

I believe keep the engine free of deposits or increase performance, a lot more water would be required than just a small line containing air that has been water bubbled.

One thing is for sure though... this method certainly couldn't damage your engine through adding too much water

What is hard and complicated about it? Reservoir, pump, 12V power supply, pressure switch, solenoid valve, some tube and atomizing nozzle.

That will prevent turbo damage, and ensure that all the water is properly atomized.

Don't play cheap and do it half @ssed.

There must be an error in your measurement, I have a dyno sheet that proves completely that pure water adds no power of any kind at any point in the revv range.

quote:

Originally posted by Zedd:
...There must be an error in your measurement, ...

Asking for no other reason but clairity for all readers; Whose measurments are you refering too?

quote:

I have a dyno sheet that proves completely that pure water adds no power...

Actually you have a dyno sheet that shows no power increase occured in THAT ONE CAR. The results may NOT extrapolate to other vehicles or even the same type vehicle but with a differnt tune or different condition of the engine (less engine wear with no blow by for example).