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Hello Everyone.

Would there be a way to use the vacuum already created in a diesel engine's intake as the force needed to draw water from a tank thru a mister head and into the intake ??

This would eliminate the need for a pump, any on off switching, or extra controls.

And may even make the system variable.


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Simply, run a hose to a vented water tank.
Install a mister head into the intake.
Would there be enough vacuum to draw water??

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If that did not work !!!

Could exhaust pressure be used to pressurize the water tank ?

Plumb a line from the exhaust manifold to the top of the tank.

Would this increase the pressure enough to make the vacuum system work.

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I had these Ideas after reading this post and wanted to share them with you.
I hope to be setting up an injection system soon. If I answer any of my own questions I will be sure to get back with you here.
Thank You
RichC

In order for manifold vacum on a diesel to draw water in there must be some sort of restriction to cause the vaccum in the first place. If there were enough to draw in any worthwhile amount of water, it would mean that something in your intake system was causeing a very power robbing air flow restriction.

One could use exhaust pressure and there is always an amount of back pressure just after the manifold. Chances are the differential in pressure between idle and full power could be used to control when the system activated by use of a check valve that only opend at a certain pressure.

There are many ways to trigger a WI system, the question is which one is the most practical, simple and cost effective for a given application.

I know of a few people who hooked it up on gas cars. One guy did it on a euro, installed an extra windshield wiper fluid pump and a solenoid and pushed a button and water was sucked into the engine at a certain rate.

Might want to look into a marvel mystery oil inverse oiler.

shurflo pump

The surflo pump is the standard for these systems. The one that comes with my system is 1 Gpm and produces 150psi and is specialy designed to handle methanol. Also note the $19 boost activated control on the same page...
Surflo/Devils Own

Im not trying to discourage different thinking... But it seams like people are trying to dream up different ways of running this system just for the sake of coming up with a different way. That seams like a strange approach to take when you have little experience in something.

These systems are well tested, the pumps work well, the boost controlled activator is very simple, effective and easy to adjust. Wire in a toggle switch to kill the system and it is very functional. And many of these systems come complete for around $200.
$179 complete WI KIT

One other thing, I have looked at a few websites of WI manufactures and none that I found even mention the cleaning effects of these systems. Wikipedia mentions it briefly and also notes that you need to be careful when using manifold presure as a trigger because manifold pressuer is high during starting...
Wikipedia WI

Hi Quinn8bit. Regarding the Wikipedia tech tip on higher manifold pressures on startup: Perhaps some sort of timer on the starter cicuit that controlled a relay to deactivate the injection control pressure switch may help.

Hi Johno. Thanks for explaining the potential for svo deposits in the Sac space in older injectors. Whenever I've consulted local IP rebuilders regarding svo issues, they've discouraged conversion based on horror stories of coking. Since A.C.R.E.V.O. recomended 150 deg Celcius and most greasers only get their veggie up to 70 deg C, I've often wondered if there's any connection there. I've considered using some serious heaters to bring the temp up to 150ish, but others I've spoken to caution against that because of the potential for problems based on different pump materials having different co-efficient of thermal expansion and contraction. The concern was how this might affect the close tolerances inside an IP.

That might seem to be off-topic, but this thread seems to have touched on temp concerns (EGT etc), so even though the main topic is H2O inj, I thought why not mention fuel temp here also.

One note on your temps....
I added an inline temp gauge on my fuel line after my single tank conversion heated filter, before my injection pump... My highest temps recorded wer 110f!after a thorough warm up! Not C...F! That was when I started building my Bio-Reactor! Just some info I gathered along the way...

quote:

Originally posted by welder:
Hi Quinn8bit. Regarding the Wikipedia tech tip on higher manifold pressures on startup: Perhaps some sort of timer on the starter cicuit that controlled a relay to deactivate the injection control pressure switch may help.

I still cant understand how that is simpler than a $19 boost sensor. and the boost sensor will not activate until under load, and the boost sensor is adjustable. and you are going to find that you are using to much of the water, and constantly re-filling your resevoir. I have a 2.5 gallon res. and when my boost controll was set at 1/2 boost I was emptying my res. 4 times per tank of fuel. If it was on all the time you couldnt make a trip without filling it.. Now I set it at 2/3max boost (10psi) and my consumption is much lower. The adjustment took less than 20 seconds...including popping the hood!

quote:

Im not trying to discourage different thinking... But it seams like people are trying to dream up different ways of running this system just for the sake of coming up with a different way. That seams like a strange approach to take when you have little experience in something.

Exactly!
And it seems that people are hell bent on coming up with complex soloutions to problems that just don't exist! How many ideas have we now had suggested in this thread to solve Potential and possible problems that never happen in the real world and don't need complex, impractical soloutions that would create more possibilities for trouble and breakdowns than the often far fetched possibilities they are intended to solve!

I think instead of endless conjecture and pie in the sky theroy, people would be better off buying a kit and installing it such as the ones your refer to quinn than just going on endlessly with pointless conjecture and get some real world knowledge and experience. The kits have no doubt proven themselves with hundreds of applications so if a problem did occour people could go about solving something specific rather than endless theoreticals.

Perhaps some people can't understand the fact that water can be a very simple and effective thing that does not require complexity or the creation of a multitude of other siginificant and potential problems to work.

The oil heating thing is something else I believe is totally misundersoood and few people seem to have a real grasp on the realities of it. There is only so much you can heat oil and keep it hot in a fuel system that was never intended for the tempratures some people reccomend. The fuel system and its components for the most part act like big heat sinks so raising ( or lowering if that was your goal) the fuel temp to that above the engine temp is difficult and I believe inheriently risky.

As coking in the injectors is due to the oil getting so hot it carbonises, why would you want to raise the temp of the oil before it got there closer still to the temp it coked at? This would mean that far less heat from the injectors being exposed to the to combustion temps would ned to be transfered to the oil to cause the very problem that was trying to be prevented!

To deter coking of the sac space in injectors, you would want to keep the oil below the coking temp by cooling it at that point not heating it.

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Hello Everyone

My vehicles do not have turbos.

1981 Mercedes 300D
1986 Ford F250 6.9 liter International engine

So I cannot use a boost pressure switch.

And I do not drive the Mercedes hard enough to engage the throttle kick down switch that often.

What do you think would be the best way for me to trigger an injection system ?

Thank You
Have Fun

RichC
.

DCS.
I had a change of heart. I decided that my WI system was too simple, and the fact that it was maintenance free bothered me.
First I hooked pin wheels from the circus to my trunk lid and wired them to a relay, when the pin wheels were moving the water injection would come on.It worked great but,I parked overnight near the beach and when I came back to my car the entire block was full of water. I guess it was windy. I drained the block...
Then I rigged up a system with a mechanical pump that I could pump up and down with my left foot while I worked the Pedals with my right foot. The pump was for an inflatable raft, so the system was very economical. But My leg got tired and I started to notice that my left calf was getting bigger than my right.
Now I have the system connected to my stereo volume. My theory was that I always ride with the windows down, and that means that I have to turn up the volume as I accelerate. Now I have a foolproof system! I will never have to worry about my water injection system...

Gee, that was actually quite funny!!!

Just like RichC, I am driving a NON-TURBO VEHICLE. I've mentioned that before, but I guess you missed it. Somehow I don't think your $19.00 boost sensor will work for me.

Just for clarity, that is an entirely seperate issue from the other application of "always on" H2O injection. The "Always on" water injection application was intended for gasoline engines, not diesels. Yes, I know that most people who do water inj only use it for short periods. I actually know of an application where it is desireable to have the water running from right after warm up all the way until shutdown.

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Hello Everyone

The best Idea I can come up with is a throttle position switch, with an oil pressure cutoff switch.

The throttle position switch would be triggered at half throttle and above. Or wherever in the throttle range you wanted it to start.

The power would be shut off by the oil pressure sensor switch when the engine was not running.

And of course the system would only get power when the ignition was turned on.

Can anyone see any problems with this setup??
Thanks for your help.
RichC
Have Fun

That's very similar to what I came up with only I was going to use a button instead of a throttle switch. The techie I consulted with at work also saw the need for an oil pressure switch as did Coach Geo (see page2).

Ok, so I caught up on the whole water injection thread in one sitting.
Water when turning to steam increases in volume between 1,200 and 1,700 times depending on factors I can't claim to know.
Diesel, being made up of hydrogen and carbon, when combined with atmospheric oxygen creates h2o and co2. Supposably (someone who's the chemist can verify) one gallon of diesel fuel if perfectly combusted (like never) would create fifteen gallons of water in the combustion process, hence the gold in Midas' pockets as the water condenses in the exhaust pipe when the car shuts down. Yes, if you're injecting water pre-turbo, you definitely want it to be smallest droplet mist, but if you have the means, having the nozzle 1.5 to 2.5 inches from the hub of the turbo is the best placement.
Make absolutely SURE that you don't allow the nozzle to get sucked into the turbine. Like crossing the streams& total protonic reversal, it would be bad. Placing the nozzle there allows the small vortex and vacuum to suck any droplets to the CENTER of the turbine which is moving the slowest, and slings any droplets outward to the periphery of the turbo. Having the water injected before the turbo allows the heat of compression to go directly into the water instead of the air and then later the water. You have a rather direct increase in turbine efficiency when the turbo isn't pumping hot air. Even IF you had a super intercooler that dropped your air temperature back down to 150F and you had condensation, you'd have the smallest droplets possible created, and with the turbulence and airflow, they'd go right into the engine. So when these droplets get to the 200F+ engine block or pistons, and undergo 1,000F combustion, the chance of having rust is way minimal. IF you had a whole ml of water hit the piston after engine shutdown, it would still turn to steam and likely leak past your rings if stuck on a valves closed stroke. The whole water could rust your engine sounds like the biggest of exaggerations.

So I've got a non-turbo vw consuming the high lipid diet and wanted to install water injection as a fuel economy booster. My goal would be to get 60 mpg on free fuel. Possible? dono.
BUT after looking over a few diy water injection sites with windshield washer pumps, shureflow pumps or others, I decided that I didn't want to have to bother with the electrical installation of a pump, the selection of a pump, the question of how much water was being flowed and at what pressures by a pump and tossed out the whole water pump idea altogether. I decided to take an AIR tank, fill it mostly with water, have the water-out hose on the bottom and pressure the tank with compressed air. I chose a water mister nozzle from mcmaster-car for it's micron size, and rated flow per hour at 100 psi which was a lot easier than trying to figure out the math for a pump.
My fuel injection pump drinks about 2 gph at 70 mph. I wanted 3:1 fuel:water ratio and found a nice .68 gph 20 micron nozzle. At this rate, the air bubble in the 5G water tank expands slow enough that the air compressor shouldn't have to turn on more than 60 seconds per hour.
Well, that's if I had a compressor.
A $15 cigarette lighter compressor should do the trick, but I haven't bothered to finish the project.
I tested it out a little using a ball valve positioned near the gearshift for on/off with another needle valve for extra shut off when turning the engine off and visited the gas station for air.
Most of this was a theory test as I wanted to apply this to a 18 wheeler with a 100 gallon tank. They already have a 120 psi compressor and airtank. One would only need a valve to supply the air.
I further theorized that for the 12L diesel, having 2 boost sensors could allow 2 different nozzles to open, a detail available in the commercial water injection systems.

Stone axe simple?

Biggest drawback for me right now is how to get water into the airtank.
My only remaining questions are how much water do I really need for fuel savings and what % of benefit would it give?

I got most of my factoid info from George Wiseman's fuel mileage books at http://www.eagle-research.com.

Must give Alex George the credit on the air bubble pressured system.
Also a cost rundown.
Airtank (ebay) $20
Mcmaster nozzle $8
15 foot 1/4" nylon air hose $4
ball valve $5
brass automotive type valve stem for filling air tank at gas station $2?
Pipe plug $1
Air pressure gague $5
Needle flow valve $10?
Air compressor I haven't bought $20

Juan, this sounds interesting, but where are you getting your information from? Hyperlink?

Ok, give me a more specific question?
I've bought some books from the site from the hyperlink. So I guess I got most of my info from George.

quote:

Originally posted by JuanMooreThyme:
Ok, give me a more specific question?

I just have one question for you Juan:
Were you actualy being serious in your first post or just trying to give us all a good laugh?

If you were trying to be funny, well done. You certainly gave me a good chuckle once I got over the initial shock of what your were saying.

If you are being serious, you are completely, utterly and dangerously misinformed.

As soon as I see a website that makes Mention of "Free energy", I know that everything and anything on the site is a load of complete and utter rubbish and there is probably some mney grabbing scam behind it. In this case it seems to be books that explain how to do the impossible.

If you are interested in facts rather than believeing in the tooth fairy, I encourage you to just do a simple google search and read what every one else says about water injection instead of what this snake oil salesman dreams up.

quote:

Originally posted by JuanMooreThyme:... Yes, if you're injecting water pre-turbo, you definitely want it to be smallest droplet mist, but if you have the means, having the nozzle 1.5 to 2.5 inches from the hub of the turbo is the best placement....

If you CAN'T do this then dont do pre turbo at all. From what I have read still not sure this is even a good thing to do. All I have read says NOOOO on pre turbo. Have you ever dove into water off the high dive or higher. You know that smash you get on your head. Now think your head is turbo blade high diving into one pool after the other and continualy going from higher boards (blade RPM's increasing) and you start to get the picture that that turbo blade is getting tortured.

Over time you damage your turbo that way.

Real cheapshot flame DCS.
I'm way disinterested in the Easterbunny and I've met the biggest snakeoil salesman in the industry (initials PP).
Rather than just call me a misinformed idiot, could you specify where I was wrong? Was it the expansion of water into gas being 1:1500ish? The amount of water generated by combining 1 gallon of petro hydrocarbon with 6,000 cubic feet of air? I did ask if someone who understands chemistry could verify that.
Was it some problem with putting a spray of 20 micron droplets pre-turbo?
http://www.3barracing.com/water%20inj.htm is one of the water injection sites I googled 3 years ago and at the bottom of the page it mentions that they've used pre-turbo water injection for 50,000 miles and not had compressor blade erosion.

George Wiseman isn't a fruitcake or snakeoil salesman.
He's as smart and hardworking as Justin Carven of Greasecar, or Christopher Goodwin of Frybrid. He usually prefers to get people to experiment and learn how things do and don't work, hence the how-to books he publishes. You really must not have looked at his website past the first page.
"EAGLE-RESEARCH definition

FREE ENERGY refers to energy
that you can get without going
through some utility meter."

Listed in that section are solar, wind, geothermal energy and biofuels, such as vegetable oil.
That's the "free energy" we've filled up hundreds of pages of discussion board dealing with.
Oh, yes he does sell one book on a "free energy accumulator" that makes about enough power to run a digital clock.

Think before you spout. We've got enough of a problem with toxic gas emissions on this planet.
I've witnessed many a shocked face or beligerent retort when I've told people my car is fueled on old french-fry grease.
I really didn't expect to hear it here.


I just have one question for you Juan:
Were you actualy being serious in your first post or just trying to give us all a good laugh?

If you were trying to be funny, well done. You certainly gave me a good chuckle once I got over the initial shock of what your were saying.

If you are being serious, you are completely, utterly and dangerously misinformed.

As soon as I see a website that makes Mention of "Free energy", I know that everything and anything on the site is a load of complete and utter rubbish and there is probably some mney grabbing scam behind it. In this case it seems to be books that explain how to do the impossible.

If you are interested in facts rather than believeing in the tooth fairy, I encourage you to just do a simple google search and read what every one else says about water injection instead of what this snake oil salesman dreams up.[/QUOTE]