After consulting with the techie at work, I've come up with a totally failsafe automatic water injection control system. I'm not sure if it's patentable, but if not, I'll describe the details here later.

Just a thought, but if you're using a turbocharged system, you could use a pressure-switch to enable the water injection at a fixed pressure (say, 2-5 psi).

This would help you adjust the loading point at which the injection is enabled - typically I don't see much boost unless I'm beginning to load the engine by either accelerating or hauling a load.

It might be helpful for the boost-pressurized system also, so that there is a positive shut-off that keeps the system from 'dribbling' at low-load, idle, and off conditions.

I like the thread - thanks everyone.

Mark

Muleears... Im the one you spoke to about that system and I just wanted to clear up one thing. I have used this system extensively with WVO. Infact I have only recently switched to Biodiesel (1/4tank burned) and previously used WVO.

My take on the system is this...
There is a definant performance increase based mostly on the methanol in the system. (some have documented 4-5 HP on Dyno test)
There should be a decrease in EGT but I havent tested myself. others who have installed these on mercedes 5 cylender diesels reported little to no decrease in EGT
There should be some cleaning effect of the engine (i havent documented that) but if you are burning VO, especialy in a one tank system (as I was)what really needs cleaning is your injectors, and this system wont help that...
God luck...
Quinn

First off whats God luck???

The system I have installed comes on based on turbo boost. 1/2 boost to full boost is normal. I have it set to come on at 7 and my boost tops out at 14.

You will also want to add a toggle switch so that you can kill the system on long stretches on the freeway. Otherwise you will empty your tank fast!! And I have a 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk washer fluid tanks will have to be filled quite often...

quote:

Originally posted by welder:
After consulting with the techie at work, I've come up with a totally failsafe automatic water injection control system. I'm not sure if it's patentable, but if not, I'll describe the details here later.

Can't wait to see what you have come up with!

My totally failsafe Automatic water injection control system is to wire the WI pump into the auto kickdown switch. Only works when the ignition on and your foot is pushed flat to the floor!

When I put my foot to the floor my 7.3 squeels my tires and slams my head into the back window, so I can't use a kickdown switch except on the highway.

quote:

Originally posted by welder:
When I put my foot to the floor my 7.3 squeels my tires and slams my head into the back window, so I can't use a kickdown switch except on the highway.

I gotta get me one of them!!

Hi guys!

I apologise if it seems like I'm being a greedy jerk by not describing all the inner workings of the mechanisms involved in the water injection control system I've concieved of. I know it seems to violate the general spirit of brotherhood and sharing that operates the free exchange of info on this forum.

I'm only being a little tight lipped until I know one way or the other whether I can actually protect the product or not. One way or the other, I will eventually explain how it works so people can build their own systems at home. The only reason I'm saying nothing yet is that if I publish functional details now, I start a one year countdown inside which time I must file for patent or else the business potential is lost to public domain.

I've got no problem with people copying the system at home for their own use, I just don't want some business to start selling my product 13 months after I publish details because I couldn't get the money together to go through the patent process.

For all I know, the product already exists. It would be much easier for me to simply buy a finished product than to build my own from scratch.



Hi DCS! Yeah, it's nice to have some power! I only feel the snappy high torque of the big diesel in the lower gears. Once the truck is moving along, the powerful torque isn't as noticeable as going from zero to whatever. Burning biofuels helps lessen the guilt of running a large displacement engine.

WELDER,
Have you researched Water Injection thouroughly? I just went back and re-read some of these post and Im surprised at some of them. There are tons of fully controlled WI systems on the market! A recent search on E-Bay yielded nearly 12 different companys selling kits, all of them with controll systems that limit opperation until under load. Most of them are based on Turbo PSI. Do you really think you are the first to think of a water injection controll? Do you think anyone would have one of these systems if filling up your cylinders with water while the car was not running was an option??? Do you really think anyone is going to steal your idea when turbo boost is so easy to use and the parts are readily available....
What does your system involve, what are you using to determine working load???

Well Quinn8it, no I haven't researched water injection thoroughly. I though yo re-read this thread? Check my April 29 post on page2 (04:06 AM) and see the second to last paragraph.

I had no idea that water injection control systems even existed, but I'm not surprised. It was another members insistance that automatic control was unnecessary that had lead me to believe that they may not have been in use.

I've got so many other projects going right now that I'm really not too worried about the water injection thing much. The main reason that I entered my May 03 7:22 PM post is that I wanted to clear up any bad impression I may have left on my May 02 4:11 PM post.

I think you might have missed the second to last paragraph of my last post. It answers many of your questions.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:


The reason the bores don't rust is because no one runs water all the time! This is where you are making problems that never existed before because no one ever did it this way for reasons exactly like this!!

With all respect, I strongly suggest you gentlemen leave your cars alone because your lack of understanding of the principals and practicalities involved and compulsion to go down the track of always having the water on is going to cause you to do some significant and expensive damage to your engines.

What you do is your choice but if you find yourselves walking, don't blame the water injection or say IT caused your engines to be damaged because the blame will lie a lot closer to home.

WELDER,
I think if you read this post by DCS closely you will understand that he is agreeing with the need for WI to be controlled. I think what is confussing is that anyone who knows about WI would not run the system without a controller. He thinks you are over-complicating/thinking a system that is basicily developed and in use.
I am not trying to be harsh, but it just seams weird that you mentioned on two seperate post your desire to patent this product, you obviously are spending alot of time thinking about it. But you havent done a simple Google search to see the huge amount of info out there...
Here is a link to a thorough "how to" on building your own kit:Water/Alcohol how to

Quinn8it, I have read all DCS posts and the only control recomendation that I recall making was toward boost pressure or throttle control. If you re-read his posts, you will notice that he believes that a variable flow system is not necessary. Since variable flow systems exist, some people clearly differ.

I don't care who supports what. I was only trying to learn about water injection because I think that along with the usual mods, injection MIGHT be a good way to help prevent cold start coking build up in single tank svo systems.

I don't want to keep debating this non issue. Clearly, I have a lot to learn about water injection. I plainly stated that a few times.

I didn't do a simple Google search on existing products because I had planned to build my own homemade system from scratch. Certainly, I would have done full research before spending money on patent applications etc. At that point, I would have discovered the other products. Thanks for your concern.

I really think you are trying to over complicate things Welder. There are no real advantages I can think of to running the water all the time but it would seem to me there are a lot of drawbacks and Dangers

So do I because they would tell you the same thing I am in that you are complicating something simple that will have no benifit or effect.

The reason the bores don't rust is because no one runs water all the time! This is where you are making problems that never existed before because no one ever did it this way for reasons exactly like this!!

cannot see what good it would do to have water spraying into the engine full time such as when it is under light load for instance.

certainly don't think I know everything so maybe you could explain to me with reasonable detail, why you want to have a constant type WI system?

Specificaly I would like to learn what problems you think a full time system would fix or prevent that a normal on/off constant rate system dosent and what benifits it would provide to the engine to make it worthwhile.

All quotes from DCS and all in defense of a standard Boost PSI control on a WI system.... I dont understand the confusion

If you want to run it all the time, then you need to get power from a switched source, then run a window switch so that it only kicks on past a certain rpm. Power from a TPS, if you have one would be okay, except it would kick on after the car was shut off put the power was still on.

I second the above in saying you are reinventing the wheel with a trapezoid.

quote:

Originally posted by welder:
Well Quinn8it, no I haven't researched water injection thoroughly.
I had no idea that water injection control systems even existed

This explains a great deal and is a significant insight to many comments and suggestions that have been put forward.

I would normally assume that people would spend time to read and educate all they could about a particular topic before making suggestions not to mention proposing to patent something there are plenty of similar systems for which they weren't already aware of which did the same job!!!!

Obviously I need to give people less credit and ask more questions about their knowledge level before trying to have discussions with them on a particular subject in order to acertain if they have the first clue or are like using " The Force".

For those that are hell bent on running a "constant" type system ( and I have still yet to see anyone put forward any suggestions as to the benifits such a system would achieve on a diesel engine) a simple way to do this would be to switch the system using a water level switch from a washing machine.

Plumb it to the intake system after the turbo so it sees a boost signal and it will kick in at low boost levels but will not activate at idle or when the engine is off. They have a built in adjustment so you could control when the switched in the pump to a certain degree anyway.
For something like a variable flow system, use a high pressure pump coupled to a rising rate fuel regulator so the stronger boost allows more water to flow.

Couple both these systems into a simple button type temprature switch and they will only activate when the engine is up to temp and therefore be fully automated.
Easily and cheaply done with simple components already available over the counter anywhere.

I still wonder why the hell anyone (that knows the basics about water injection) would want to bother with a constant or variable rate system on a Diesel when a simple on/off controll will do the job perfectly well if set to activate only at wider throttle openings?

Every Kit I have seen has a Turbo Boost control. Normal thinking says have the system come on at half boost (my max is 14psi and mine comes on around 8-9psi) If you want the system to be on more, just set it to the lowest boost! It seams pretty easy, boost only happens under load so it wont ever come on at idle or even with a high rpm reving of the engine. I think that once you realize how often you are re-filling your reservoir you will re-think the amount of time the system is on, especialy if you are cutting your distilled water($1.5 gal) with Methanol ($3 Gal) I fill my tank 4 times for a tank of fuel and I have a 2.5 Gal reservoir...

This is my understanding BCS. It takes a lot of heat to change H2O from a liquid to a gas. It will also expand a lot when this happens. The expansion and heat absorption are both beneficial to diesels. The expansion would come the same as a gas engine, and the hypothetical EGT benefits would also be beneficial. As far as real world benefits, I don’t know of that many people using it as a EGT temp suppressor. The people who would realize the most benefit, the trucks, are usually running propane to help get the temp decrease and boost in power. I don’t know what sites the diesel truck guys are on, so I don’t know how to get any info on them.

Although I mentioned that I was interested in finding out if water injection would steam away any coking left behind after single tank svo cold starts, that application would not need constant injection.

There is a legitimate use for constant water injection. If you think real hard, I bet you'll guess what it is.

Sorry for the hurt feelings you seem to have. I never intended that. It seems that no matter what I say to defuse your frustration, you still remain upset. Why?

BTW , distilled water at wal-mart is .64 a gallon.

quote:

Originally posted by bork:
BTW , distilled water at wal-mart is .64 a gallon.

Thats good to know. Im sure my corner market dosent have the best price....

As far as lowered EGT. I would say that is the goal of most people who install these systems. I do have a pyrometer installed, but I havent toggled the WI system so I can kill it and compare EGT on similar situations. Others with Mercedes Diesels have recorded zero EGT reduction. There is an undeniable HP increase if Methanol is added to the water.