Does anyone understand why we can't seem to purchase fuel grade ethanol in any form except E85? I've asked three methanol/ethanol suppliers and the answer seems to be that it's just not available in drums, just truckloads. Even when I ask this question of a major alcohol supplier who produces both industrial and fuel ethanol the answer is industrial ethanol in drums for $4+ per gallon and fuel grade ethanol in truckloads for $1.60+/- but no in between.
Any ideas?

If drums of pure ethanol were available with minimal paperwork, after bars (AKA booze cans) all over this continent would be elated.

Ethanol that is denatured with methanol or gasoline just doesn't make very good banana daquiris or margaritas. Don't ask me how I know that...

quote:

Originally posted by welder:
If drums of pure ethanol were available with minimal paperwork, after bars (AKA booze cans) all over this continent would be elated.

Ethanol that is denatured with methanol or gasoline just doesn't make very good banana daquiris or margaritas. Don't ask me how I know that...

I'm no ethanol expert, that's for sure.. But.. I thought fuel grade ethanol is poison anyhow (even in pure form).
As I understand it, if you want drinkable ethanol, all your equipment has to be stainless steel or pure copper.
I'm not sure that commercial grade fuel ethanol is made using machinery with those materials. (or maybe it is I'm not sure).

So, if the ethanol isn't made using pure materials, it becomes poison anyhow right?

Or did I miss something?

Let me repeat the question. As far as I have been able to determine CDA20 is an industry wide designator for 200 proof ethanol that has been "completely denatured" as in completely denatured alcohol. Fuel grade ethanol is 200 proof ethanol which may or may not be denatured (I haven't yet been able to determined this) that contains 1 to 2 tenths of percent water (probably OK for our purposes). The difference is $2.50/gal. Is there some government regulation as to how industrial ethanol has been historically marketed that explains the price difference?
For example one company I contacted "Farmco" sells only industrial ethanol in drums while its sister company "Greenfield" sell fuel ethanol only in truckloads or tankcars but the sales agent for Farmco couldn't (or wouldn't)tell me why he couldn't sell fuel grade ethanol.
I am hoping that someone can explain this for me?

quote:

So, if the ethanol isn't made using pure materials, it becomes poison anyhow right?

Or did I miss something?

No, you likely didn't miss anything, I probably did. I was pretty much guessing at the cause of the ethanol distribution mystery. Illicit abuse of drinkable thanol was the only obvious thing that I could think of to explain the gap in quantity distribution.

Are truck tank loads of ethanol any cheaper than equivelant quantities of methanol?

I doubt that it would take 15% petroleum in a fuel to discourage people from drinking it.

You could probably discourage most people from drinking it with 5% gasoline, or for that matter a few percent methanol.

You can, of course, head to Home Depot and purchase "denatured ethanol (with Methanol added) by the gallon.

I believe that Ethanol (or methanol) is relatively stable... thus no need for fuel stabilizers. They are somewhat hydrophilic... perhaps the gasoline content reduces the ability to absorb water. They are also quite volatile.

As I understand it, they are running Ethanol-100 in Brazil. So, if they can do it in Brazil, I see no reason why we can't do it here. It isn't quite as fuel efficient as gasoline, but can be run at a higher compression.

From what I understand, the 15% gasoline in fuel ethanol is to aid in cold starting, like high compression on IDI diesels and glow plugs on diesels period.

Ethanol takes more heat to vaporize than gasoline does, so the 15% gas vaporizes more fully in colder temperatures. Some locations even have a "winter mix E85" which is in fact up to 30% gasoline to help it start in the cold.

Also from my understanding, ethanol that isn't made "industrially" with pure metal equipment isn't necessarily automatically poisonous. It's the same ethanol, but because of it's solvent properties it may have picked up more contaminants from the still, or you might even have inadvertently produced a small quantity of methyl alcohol in the process of producing the ethanol as a result of the "less than optimum" production conditions.

Having tin, for instance, in your distillery would be a bad thing simply because of the really bad properties of organic tin compounds.

When I asked a local chemical supplier (UNICHEM) what the difference between "fuel grade" and "Industrial grade" ethanol was, he said purity. Fuel grade doesn't have to be pure, and it's denaturant material is almost always (actually, he said "universally") gasoline. Industrial grade ethanol is higher purity, tends to be certified and is more commonly denatured with something like methanol or a chemical cocktail less likely to interfere with chemical processes requiring the ethanol's high purity. Industrial ethanol also tends, he said, to have only the absolute minimum amounts of denaturant added for the same reason, ethanol purity.

Welder,
I think you asked the right question. "Are truck tank loads of ethanol any cheaper than equivelant quantities of methanol?" I haven't found a current methanol price but one old pricing webpage indicated a methanol price this past Oct of $1.68/gal. (I assume bulk). This is $2.60 less per gal than I've been quoted for methanol in drums. It may just be the price we pay for buying such small volumes (4-12 drums).
However, my question still stands. As far as I can determine fuel ethanol is of sufficent purity for making biodiesel, maybe not as pure as industrial grade but plently good enough.
I begin to suspect that the industry just hasn't gotten around to diverting some of the four billion gallons of fuel ethanol into smaller quantities.

It may depend on the cost of breaking tankers down in to drums, holding them, transporting them and the cost of transactions. You might be interested to know that you can buy bottles of rectified spirit (that's 100% spirit (probably ethanol) by volume) in bottle shops. But 1. its a long way for a lot of us to go and 2. you have to transport a helluva lota glass about. I noticed it but didn't buy any so I don't have the label to point you to a maker, but it can't be difficult to find.

Sorry guys the bottle shops are in Warsaw Poland, not London, UK

Wholesale price for fuel grade ethanol in the the St. Louis, Mo, USA market on Thursday 12/13/2007 is anywhere from $2.30 to $2.45/gallon. This is for tanker load quantities of denatured ethanol. The denaturant is, usually, about 5% gasoline.

The equivalent price of tanker load quantities of industrial grade methanol is about $2.20/gallon.

These prices do not include any fuel use taxes, either federal or state.

Stoichiometric considerations require 44% more ethanol than methanol when making biodiesel.

Therefore, an "equivalent alcohol price" for ethanol based BD compared to methanol based BD is (($2.30/0.95) x 1.44) = $3.48/gallon.

There may be many reasons to use ethanol in lieu of methanol, but economics based on wholesale market prices ($2.20/gal vs $3.48/gal) is not one of them.

I am trying to get a quote on fuel grade E99 here in North Florida in around 100-110gal. quantities. I'll let you guys know what I find out. Probably will be closer to $3.00/gal than 2. But hopefully cheaper than $6.00/gallon like methanol in 55 gal qty. in the same area.

same reason we cant buy this car that gets 90mpg here in the usa greed

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Auto_Ne...Lupo.S173.A6167.html

quote:

Originally posted by benz240d:
same reason we cant buy this car that gets 90mpg here in the usa greed

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Daily_Auto_Ne...Lupo.S173.A6167.html

There are some considerations beyond greed involved in that decision, but I don't suppose many would pay attention to them.

Yeah reasons like excessive regulation. I believe we should have the choice, from the smallest electric car to the massive Hummers. The market will decide...when fuel is expensive as it is now, people will be interested in conservation, when its 97 cents a gallon like it was in the '90s people will drive the tank. But it will never be that cheap again in the forseeable future.

As I'm tooling down the road in my 1967 Fiat 500... I'd much rather be whacked by a Volkswagen Lupo than being plowed under by a Hummer.

IH diesel,

quote:

Originally posted by IHdiesel:
I am trying to get a quote on fuel grade E99 here in North Florida in around 100-110gal. quantities. I'll let you guys know what I find out. Probably will be closer to $3.00/gal than 2. But hopefully cheaper than $6.00/gallon like methanol in 55 gal qty. in the same area.

I'll be interested to hear what you discover, keep us posted. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Rick G:
Welder,
I think you asked the right question. "Are truck tank loads of ethanol any cheaper than equivelant quantities of methanol?" I haven't found a current methanol price but one old pricing webpage indicated a methanol price this past Oct of $1.68/gal. (I assume bulk). This is $2.60 less per gal than I've been quoted for methanol in drums. It may just be the price we pay for buying such small volumes (4-12 drums).
However, my question still stands. As far as I can determine fuel ethanol is of sufficent purity for making biodiesel, maybe not as pure as industrial grade but plently good enough.
I begin to suspect that the industry just hasn't gotten around to diverting some of the four billion gallons of fuel ethanol into smaller quantities.

I think it's simply a matter of demand. Who would they sell barrels full of E99 to anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by cfunderburg:
I think it's simply a matter of demand. Who would they sell barrels full of E99 to anyway?

Me!

Sorry to have kept folks waiting...I bought 110 gallons worth of E99 from First Coast Biofuels in Lake City FL. Cost...$2.85/gallon. Sweet deal if it works...and it should. I had no trouble getting good test batches even with their E85. Doesn't want to separate easily but once I "force" it with some hot water or glycerine its perfect...just like a methanol batch...easy wash, pretty fuel etc. Perhaps I did a stupid thing by getting so much, but I'm not about to sit around and be screwed by the sellers of methanol any more than by big oil if I have an option.