Sponsors Biodiesel & SVO Home Biodiesel & SVO Forums Making Biodiesel with Ethanol Making BioDiesel With Ethanol E85, Settle it here
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member 2008 Sponsor |
Are you serious?
Are you going to run your reaction at 80F? You are not seriously going to heat up gasoline to 130F or so are you? If you totally ignore the gasoline issue, read up on using ethanol. I believe it requires a higher percentage to get a good reaction. (I use 18%-22% methanol. I think ethanol is something like 30%. You still end up only using 10% or so in the actual reaction. If you do not do the 5% prewash you may be able to recover the excess ethanol from the glycerin. However, it may be tricky distilling ethanol out of something containing gasoline. I can't think of a good reason to try this. Who knows how much water is also in the E85. Just my humble opinion. -Jim www dot FryerPower dot com 1987 300DT (The sedan, not the wagon.) Some modifications to the fuel system. 1995 S350D Unmodified fuel system. I plead the 5th. |
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I have run batches up to 5 gallons using E85 with no issues.
Reaction takes place at normal temperatures (130F) but I am careful to evacuate the air out of the vessel by leaving the vent open when the ethoxide is first introduced. I also only do it outside, where the fumes won't build and there are no easy ignition sources. The gasoline/ethanol mixture seems to be pretty close to anhydrous; I haven't yet to date had a bad quality batch (reprocess test using regular methoxide for control), and I've done 2x5gal and numerous little 1L batches. The only increase in alcohol I do is to account for the 15% gasoline, to bring my ethanol ratio up to the normal 20% by volume. I use sodium hydroxide, NaOH. However! If you are planning on doing this using E85, be absolutely certain your vapors are never exposed to a hot element. I have ignited the vapors before, luckily it was outside the test batch vessel. By the way, I'm just off of I85, Exit 19; feel free to drop a line sometime, we'll chat. I have an E85 station just up the road from me, about fifteen minutes. --There is no Magic Bullet.-- If bigger is safer, buses are safest. Save yourself, use Transit. |
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In my area, E85 is cheap enough at $1.99 a gallon. That's $2.34 a gallon for the ethanol, only slightly higher than what I last paid for methanol.
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD '83 Benz 240D with 617.952 OBK #35 When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace -- Jimi Hendrix |
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Turbine can you elaborate a bit on what percentages you are using? I'm thinking from what you say it is 20% after correction for the 15% gasoline. Methanol was at $2.60 a gallon last time I bought it which was about 2 months ago. I understand it has gone up quite a bit since then. If I can do this with E-85 then maybe I can save some money. John Brock Check out my website at : http://www.homebrewedbiodiesel.com Pumps, filters, safety equipment, spill containment and more! |
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member |
Exactly what I'm saying. Using 20% alcohol per liter, you would get a formula that reads: (Amount of Alcohol needed in milliliters/liter oil) = (Alcohol content in decimal format)*(Alcohol/gasoline mixture volume) Or, to add some numbers, 200=.85X where X is the volume of E85 you would need to have 200ml of Ethanol. For E85 @ 20%, you need 236ml (Rounded up) of E85 per liter. For 22% by volume, you'd need 259ml E85 per liter of oil. To make things more confusing (And at the same time, possibly easier to understand. Ignore this if the above made perfect sense to you.), I'll give you this in translation: To use the standard alcohol-to-oil ratio, you need 23.6% E85 by oil volume. Help any? --There is no Magic Bullet.-- If bigger is safer, buses are safest. Save yourself, use Transit. |
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Yes that does help.
Thanks John Brock Check out my website at : http://www.homebrewedbiodiesel.com Pumps, filters, safety equipment, spill containment and more! |
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member 2008 Sponsor |
Another factor to consider is the different molecular weights of methanol VS ethanol. The volume measurements are designed to produce certain molecular concentrations. The molar mass of ethanol is 46.06844(232) g/mol compared to 32.04 g/mol for methanol. I believe, but am not sure that this means you would need a proportionally higher amount of ethanol to get the same reaction when compared to methanol. Chemists?
Or, test it out and let us know what you find. The gasoline may speed or slow the reactions. I have no idea on that one. Andrew |
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hi
i'm interested in producing BD from E85, that will soon be available in europe. Is the catalyst quantity the same than for methanol? |
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I did a test batch of 4 gal of WVO (Soy). The amount of Glycerene was sufficient I thought and I continued the process. When I washed the oil with water it took much more to remove the soap. In fact I got tired of misting after 20 gallon and then bubbled dry. It cleared fine. I did the 3/27 test and it did not pass. I did not redo the batch but gave it away to be used in a furnace. The odor of the E85 batch smelled like paint thinner.
I am not sure if I will attempt another batch or not. This has been my only experience using E85. |
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?
what is the 3/27 test ? |
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Jan Warnqvist or 3/27 test thread
link 96 Passat Tdi Greasecar/B100 2000 Excursion 7.3L Running on Homebrew B100 |
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I've never had an E-85 batch pass 3/27 using Methanol as the solvent. It may not even work, because of the slight differences between the two esters. Or it might be that it needs tweaking to set up a different "pass/fail" point in the test results. Really the only way to check would be to get a batch ASTM tested then monkey with the 3/27 for that batch until you figure out how to read it for ethyl esters. --There is no Magic Bullet.-- If bigger is safer, buses are safest. Save yourself, use Transit. |
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It's important to remember that with E-85 or any other denatured ethanol, you produce toxic byproducts- some of the gasoline goes into the glycerine, some stays in and probably contaminates the wash water. Don't do this unless you can dispose of your glycerine by burning it (difficult to do)
I've fooled around with this on a small (lab) scale also, it works about the same as other kinds of denatured ethanol, but makes a really nasty smelling biodiesel/glycerine and probably gets toxins into the wash water. Other people who work with denatured ethanol (not E-85 but much higher purity ethanol that's been poisoned with gasoline, MEK, or other toxins) report that the byproducts smell like the gasoline even when there are very small amounts of gasoline used as a denaturant. If you can find ethanol that has been denatured with methanol, you should be able to follow regular biodiesel byproduct disposal procedures as methanol is very biodegradable unlike the other denaturants. ************ Fall 2008 Biodiesel Classes: NY, FL, and OK, and more: www.girlmark.com/tour Biodiesel Homebrew Guide: www.localb100.com/book.html Diary of a Mad Scientist blog http://girlmark.com/blog |
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Getting the reaction to go properly with dry ethanol is much harder than with methanol even if the correct adjustment is made for molecular weight. That is the probable reason why people are finding it does not pass the methanol test. It would not be less soluble in methanol.
If you just want to use up ethanol how about doing a 2-stage reaction using ethanol in the first stage and methanol in the second? Tha would overcome the conversion problem. Regarding the use of E85, for most people it is cheaper (correct me if I am wrong) than methylated spirits, which is a powerful motivator. It certainly works. Re contaminating the glycerine if E85 is used, yes it would a little. However gasoline is almost insoluble in water and in glycerol but the soap content might pull a little in as an emulsion. I suggest using the 5% water prewash. This would pretty well eliminate contamination of any volume though there might still be a substantial smell. It doesn't take much to make a smell. |
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I never thought about useing Methanol with the 3/27 test and E85. I can understand why it might not have passed the test. I can obtain regular Methanol easly and I will stick with it.
If I could find ethanol reasonably priced I would try again. |
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Gentlemen,
Has anyone used potash as a source for KOH? If so, at what temperature did you get the potash to dissolve into the E85? |
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Gentlemen,
Please disregard this entry on KOH. I found the latest thread on this topic. Thanks anyway |
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I used E85 with NaOH for my catalyst.
When I mixed the catalyst with the oil, it turned into a pudding like mixture. Did the E85 have to be heated when adding the NaOH? Where did I go wrong? |
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How fresh was the E85? If you don't use that stuff the day you buy it, it tends to produce problems.
Any water in the oil? --There is no Magic Bullet.-- If bigger is safer, buses are safest. Save yourself, use Transit. |
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Sponsors Biodiesel & SVO Home Biodiesel & SVO Forums Making Biodiesel with Ethanol Making BioDiesel With Ethanol E85, Settle it here
Biodiesel & SVO Home Biodiesel & SVO Forums Making Biodiesel with Ethanol Making BioDiesel With Ethanol E85, Settle it here© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2008