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Playing around with E85 and Denatured alcohol test batches tonight

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December 06, 2007, 03:04 AM
IHdiesel
Playing around with E85 and Denatured alcohol test batches tonight
Hey guys...I haven't posted here much lately but have been successfully making methyl esters and have been considering other options due to the high cost of methanol. I tried 3 test batches tonight, 2 with denatured alcohol (85-90% ethanol, 1-5% Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, and 1-5% Methanol) and 2 with E85 from the UF pump. I used 10g (90% KOH + 1 titration) the 2 denatured alcohol batches separated within 20-30 minutes just like a methanol batch while the E85 batches did not separate at all. They looked like WVO or thick biodiesel from top to bottom. I used the glycerine from the denatured batches along with some very warm water and was able to force separation in the 1st E85 batch. I left the 2nd one to settle overnight just to see what it would do. I haven't tried to wash any of them yet, we'll see how it comes out. I was shooting for 25% alcohol by volume, just to try something a tad bit different. Personally I don't give a rat's posterior about meeting ASTM spec with my fuel, I just want to be able to burn it and not burn up my old 6.9 diesel's fuel system. I'm now in a master's program at college that is heavy on biofuels so if I were to play with ethyl esters in that direction, of course I'd want to get it right, but for now, I'd not worry about the "perfect" and just shoot for good or acceptable. Thanks
January 27, 2008, 10:45 PM
nursecosmo
And? What happened?


there is only one solution for the earth's problems. matt 6:10
January 28, 2008, 12:16 AM
IHdiesel
What happened is that the ethyl ester batyches do not sep[arate unless forced with glycerine or water. After that they were easy to wash anddry just like methyl esters. I doubt anywhere close to ASTM spec, but good enough for my use. I'd like to improve the process. If you read my other thread here you see I have scaled up to appleseed batches with E99-100 from a local biofuels dealer. I've had a tough time washing and drying this stuff, probably due to the soap content, either from using water to force separation or using too much KOH. Thanks for your interest. Maybe these threads will get a bit more active.
January 28, 2008, 12:50 AM
nursecosmo
I also hope to see some more progress with ethanol and E-85. Like you I also couldn't care less about ASTM specs. All I want is a product with a low viscosity at a reasonable temperature.


there is only one solution for the earth's problems. matt 6:10
January 28, 2008, 02:58 AM
IHdiesel
I suppose then that you have read turbinepowered's threads about E85 batches then? That's what convinced me that it could be done.
January 28, 2008, 10:20 AM
nursecosmo
Yeah. he is doing some good stuff there. I have tried just one test batch with E-85 which I brought back from Wisconsin in a gallon jug this past summer. It's not available in Chattanooga Tn. I used close to a 33% Etoh if memory serves, but all I got was a very thin blend of oil. The next day it jelled so I used it to burn some brush (I made napalm). What I'm waiting for are some tables with hard numbers regarding percentages and procedures like already exist for FAME.


there is only one solution for the earth's problems. matt 6:10
September 16, 2008, 03:10 AM
UFO
quote:
Originally posted by nursecosmo:
I also hope to see some more progress with ethanol and E-85. Like you I also couldn't care less about ASTM specs. All I want is a product with a low viscosity at a reasonable temperature.
Just don't water wash those E85 ethyl esters -- residues from the 15% crap goes right into water sources.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

September 16, 2008, 03:16 PM
Tim c cook
Why would the 15% gasoline water wash out of oil or biodiesel, I don't think any of the components of gasoline are water soluable, I would expect it to stay dissolved in the oil/bio? Parts-per-million maybe.

I have deliberatly added water to samples of E85, the water combines with the ethanol and the gasoline will end up floating on top as a seperate layer over night (maybe quicker, didn't watch it), measuring the depth of the E85 prior to adding the water, then measuring the depth of the gasoline layer, pretty much equaled the 15%. I will blend a bit of veg into a sample of E85 and see how it reacts to water.
September 16, 2008, 03:24 PM
UFO
quote:
Originally posted by Tim c cook:
Why would the 15% gasoline water wash out of oil or biodiesel, I don't think any of the components of gasoline are water soluable, I would expect it to stay dissolved in the oil/bio? Parts-per-million maybe.

I have deliberatly added water to samples of E85, the water combines with the ethanol and the gasoline will end up floating on top as a seperate layer over night (maybe quicker, didn't watch it), measuring the depth of the E85 prior to adding the water, then measuring the depth of the gasoline layer, pretty much equaled the 15%. I will blend a bit of veg into a sample of E85 and see how it reacts to water.
All you need to do is smell your wash water then, and decide for yourself whether you will wash it down the drain.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

December 18, 2008, 08:41 PM
drewtiss
quote:
Originally posted by IHdiesel:
Hey guys...I haven't posted here much lately but have been successfully making methyl esters and have been considering other options due to the high cost of methanol. I tried 3 test batches tonight, 2 with denatured alcohol (85-90% ethanol, 1-5% Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, and 1-5% Methanol) and 2 with E85 from the UF pump. I used 10g (90% KOH + 1 titration) the 2 denatured alcohol batches separated within 20-30 minutes just like a methanol batch while the E85 batches did not separate at all. They looked like WVO or thick biodiesel from top to bottom. I used the glycerine from the denatured batches along with some very warm water and was able to force separation in the 1st E85 batch. I left the 2nd one to settle overnight just to see what it would do. I haven't tried to wash any of them yet, we'll see how it comes out. I was shooting for 25% alcohol by volume, just to try something a tad bit different. Personally I don't give a rat's posterior about meeting ASTM spec with my fuel, I just want to be able to burn it and not burn up my old 6.9 diesel's fuel system. I'm now in a master's program at college that is heavy on biofuels so if I were to play with ethyl esters in that direction, of course I'd want to get some cargo liners too, but for now, I'd not worry about the "perfect" and just shoot for good or acceptable. Thanks


Is it true that, if the methanol is kinda wet, will you hear the mixture crack & pop?