Has anyone experimented with different catalysts instead of KOH and NaOH? I've heard that calcium carbonate can be used as a catalyst and I am looking up information about it's usage. It could be beneficial since calcium soaps are not soluble in water and may precipitate out, hoping for easier phase separation with higher titrating oil and ethanol. Any other ideas?

Unfortunately, I believe that calcium carbonate cannot get you a complete enough reaction, I might be mistaken, but I am pretty sure it is not strong enough.

Yea, that could be. But I'm also looking at the possibility that lime, or another suggested chemical, that may be able to tie up any water in the ethanol and soapify the FFAs so that neither will ruin the rest of the batch and allow phase separation in the end. I have heard that calcium derived soap is not soluble in water or oil and will precipitate out of solution, which I would think would allow for easier phase separation. One could use KOH or NaOH to treat the rest of the oil after the water and FFAs have been tooken care of. Chemists, please chip in here.

I found some interesting info about drying ethanol by using quicklime (calcium oxide). Apparently, you mix quicklime into the ethanol and a reaction takes place where the calcium oxide is converted into calcium hydroxide and consumes the water in the process. Then the ethanol is distilled. I am wondering if you don't distill, how would the calcium hydroxide affect the reaction? Would it make biodiesel, be inert, or suck up the FFAs and make non soluble soap?

As it is also a Bronstead base, it will make TriG's into bioD and FFA's into soaps.

Sodium metasilicate and other strong inorganic bases should work as well.

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One could use KOH or NaOH to treat the rest of the oil after the water and FFAs have been tooken care of.

Very Interesting...

I like this line of thinking.

Tests?

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Originally posted by Mgrant:
One could use KOH or NaOH to treat the rest of the oil after the water and FFAs have been tooken care of. Chemists, please chip in here.

If you added KOH or NaOH to biodiesel, then you would not get a good solution. The material that actually made it into solution would immediately produce soap.

Mixing KOH or NaOH with water and then with the biodiesel will produce soap.

Mixing KOH or NaOH with methanol and then with the biodiesel results in the second stage of a two stage base-base reaction. People do this all the time.

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I have heard that calcium derived soap is not soluble in water or oil and will precipitate out of solution, which I would think would allow for easier phase separation.

I really hope you are correct as FFAs are reported to have possible bad effects on SVO/WVO use as well as biodiesel brewing.

If anyone knows of a way to remove FFAs from WVO that won't leave and sort of acidic or basic corrosive residues in WVO, please share the process info.

I know this isn't strictly on-topic as it's SVO related, but as I mentioned FFAs are a common problem in both diesel biofuelling options.

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Originally posted by producer:

quote:

Originally posted by Mgrant:
One could use KOH or NaOH to treat the rest of the oil after the water and FFAs have been tooken care of. Chemists, please chip in here.

If you added KOH or NaOH to biodiesel, then you would not get a good solution. The material that actually made it into solution would immediately produce soap.

Mixing KOH or NaOH with water and then with the biodiesel will produce soap.

Mixing KOH or NaOH with methanol and then with the biodiesel results in the second stage of a two stage base-base reaction. People do this all the time.

Producer,
In all three scenarios, replace the word "biodiesel" with with the word "oil" and then you will more understand what I am thinking. I am looking to treat WVO with a catalyst or a process that will neutralize the FFA while not reacting with the water in the ethanol and making soap, so that ethanol can be more easily used to transesterfy the WVO without the phase separation problems.

Mgrant,

Try milk of magnesia to reduce the FFA in oil before processing.

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Originally posted by Nick Lockard:
As it is also a Bronstead base, it will make TriG's into bioD and FFA's into soaps.

Sodium metasilicate and other strong inorganic bases should work as well.

Wait, are you saying that Calcium Hydroxide should esterify FFAs into ethyl esters?

And that calcium hydroxide can be produced as a byproduct of the addition of CaO to hydrated ethanol?

I can get CaO fairly cheap locally... big masonry and concrete business in the area.

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Mgrant,

Try milk of magnesia to reduce the FFA in oil before processing.

Hi Rick.

Does milk of magnesia have another chemical name? I've always heard it used in mention of heartburn, so I'd hate to walk into a chem house asking for milk of magnesia and get handed a bottle of Maalox out of ther medicine cabinet.

magnesium hydroxide.

Milk of magnesia is a solution of magnesium hydroxide and water.

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Milk of magnesia is a solution of magnesium hydroxide and water.

Oh, okay. I thought it was something like that, but with Cherry flavouring too.

When I was a kid, my friends family had a farm. I've milked cows and goats, but I've never milked a magnesia before.

I am pretty sure that the soap created by calcium oxide is axle grease and not water soluble.