Click Here to see a great example of an Appleseed Processor being built and then being used.

Once there, the navigation to go through the page is on the left.

The processor belongs to Jack Jones of Riverstones Biodiesel

-Graydon

Hi Graydon

Your unit looks really good. I'm in the process of building a similar unit, but have some questions with regards to the oreration.

WVO water removal: do you heat the WVO to 120oC to remove any water before it goes into the reactor, or once it is inside? I was planning on doing it inside the reactor, but I havent found anyone that is doing this.

Also while heating, do you have your pump on to circulate the oil? I would have thought this would be preferable to get the temp even through the oil.

Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Tony

The unit in the picture's is actually Jack Jones. I agree. It's a REALLY NICE setup.

He's made over 1,000 gallons just this year using it.

On water removal:
I try as hard as I can to get clean, de-watered oil prior to throwing it into the processor.

I've heard of people sticking it in the processor wet (w/ water in the oil) & cranking the heat way up. I've personally not done this. I actually set my temps at 130 deg. F & leave them there (I had a bad experience w/ overheating BD & about killing myself w/ methanol fumes so I keep my temps under the boiling point of methanol now--methanol boils at approx. 140 deg. F)

Circulating The Pump When Heating:
Yes. I circulate my pump when I heat the oil. I don't know that it really does much, but it gives me "warm fuzzies" to know that the oil is circulating past the heating element.

Most folks don't circulate when heating, I'm kind of an outlier on that one.

I have no scientific evidence that either way is better than the other. I just do it because I like to see the oil go by in my tube as well as knowing I'm mixing the oil up a bit.

I will say this though, the temp gauges that stick out of the water heater's do require a little circulation to read accurately. When the heat is applied inside the tank, the probes on the temp gauges are sitting outside the tank. Circulating the oil gives a better reading on how hot the oil is.

-Graydon

I do not think enough air can escape and/or there is too much surface area on the top of the tank such that any steam just condenses and falls back into the oil.

I have tried drying in the tank to little avail. So now I use the "dribbly skillet" (my low-tech version of johno's birdwaterer). I can dry 8-10 gallons in about an hour or so.

And I always run the pump while heating as oil does not conduct heat well and that can burn out the element.

Graydon, you are not as alone as you might think!

Thanks for that.

My initial thoughts where to raise the oil temp to 130oC to boil the water off, then let it cool down to 55oC before adding the methoxide.

My main concern was how long it would take to cool the oil (I imagine it would take quite a while!!)

I suppose I could remove the water by boiling it off in a seperate drum, or hopefully find a good supply of WVO

Cheers

Tony

Just be careful merely "boiling" the oil as any water will collect and ultimately "pop" (read: explode in your face) adn that is not good.

Also, you should start adding the methox at 60-62 deg C. You are correct that the temp stays high for a while but you want that heat as long as possible so best to start as high as possible.

I'm one of the weirdos who boil the water out of their oil. I use a 5500watt heating element on 240V, and I"m on a generator. Yes, the steam escapes (especially if you circulate), and there's no way for any 'steam explosion' to hit you since it's in a semi-sealed tank (the steam comes out of the vent to the outdoors, very smelly!).

There are hazards though- if you heat the tank that =high you have to disable the thermostat, which is extremely dangerous if you forget what you're doing!!!!!!!!!!!! and also if you have wires that lie against the tank, you can melt the insulation (they're designed for 90C and you have to heat much higher than that to boil off water), which is even more dangerous. I had my travel processor set up with a re-wire, but I dont' recommend it nor am I willing to tell people how to do it as a result.

Also, circultaing while boiling off the water can cause the reinforced PVC tubing to fall apart, also dangerous. Basically, it's fine to circulate while heating, though unnecessary, but at boiling temperatures you're really asking for a nasty mess if you circulate through plastic tubing. You can replace the tubing with solid pipe and that could take care of that problem.

Also, the mixture takes FOREVER to cool back down to processing temperatures. You could rig a system to rob the heat and add it to your wash tank, but that's a hassle and an expense.

Better dewatering solutions are to either not get wet oil in the first place, or to dewater using the 'filter, heat to 140F and let settle 24 hours' method that dana Linscott on the SVO forum recommends for SVO users. Insulation really helps with this one. I usually dont' do this because I hate filtering (messy).

Mark

Also for a great description of a small-scale evporator, see this thread:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/352100169

Mark

A list of methods for drying veg oil is not complete without mentioning that there are people who do it successfully by exposing it to air, either with or without adding just a little heat. Heat speeds up the process if humidity is high. A large amount of energy is wasted by boiling the water out without exposure to air.

My Dear friends, Have processors that they use an engine to mistrurar and has others that only use the bomb in the water heater. Because this difference exists? I do not understand. Somebody could say which to me the advantage between one and another one? It sees in link http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php...storder=asc&start=15 my questions.

Thanks

toakiuai,

There are many designs for processors, with many differences. One difference is using a pump to mix the oil and methanol (misturar i think) and using an mixing device such as an impeller on a shaft submerged in the mixture. I think this is what you are asking about. Both systems work.

It is more efficient to mix larger batches (over 300 liters) with a bladed mixer on a shaft submerged in the oil and methoxide mix.

It is less expensive to get fully sealed reaction vessels with pump mixing. This works best on batches under 400 liters.

Note: The batch size where pump mixing is no longer efficient has not been really defined in publicly available information.

hope this helps

To OVER SIMPLIFY:

Pump Mixing is safer.

Mixing with a bladed shaft makes better quality.

Warning: the above statements are not 100% true in all cases. There are exceptions!

Hope you are finding the answers for which you search.

Hello all,
As a new fresh set of eyes to the process I have lots of questions. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on, but I still have more.

For removing water from the filtered WVO I read that you can heat it to 130*F for a period of time and then let it sit. This will cause the water to collect at the bottom of the tank. Then you just drain it off. Does anyone have any experience doing this? Is anyone using a coalescing filter set up like what is used in the commercial oil cleaning industry? (http://www.kaydonfiltration.com/diesel_coalescer.htm) (By the way, Hy Pro makes better quality and less expensive replacement filters for the Kaydon set ups. http://www.filterelement.com/ ) How about preheating the WVO, filtering it, and then air-drying the warm WVO? (Pump and spray the WVO while providing fresh air.) Or is all of this too much work for a relatively small problem?

Why is the Methoxide pumped into the tank? Why not just start the recirc pump and then gravity feed the Methoxide into the top of the tank? One less ball valve and one less check valve to deal with.

What is the purpose of the clear tubing? Is it as a level indicator? Does it let you know when some critical stage has been met? Or is it just because we all like to see what is going on?

How long does the actual chemical process take? Does it continue once the mixing stops? Is there benefit to extending the mixing period? (I understand that you may incur an extra cost in additional energy used to keep the mixture hot, but for those of us using excess solar in the summer this is not an issue.)

Why do you remove heat during the 8-10 hour overnight settling period? Is it to prevent convective currents from stirring the mixture? My plan is to wrap a 10-gallon (11 inch diameter by 24 inch long) stainless steel tank I have sitting around with 1/4 inch copper tubing. Then I'm going to use a tempering/mixing valve to limit the temperature of the water going to the coil to 130*F. If extending the heating time will produce a better product I am all for it. If that means that I have to extend the total process time that is ok by me. If I can get away with shutting off the pump, heating for 4 additional hours, shutting off the heat, then letting it settle for 4-6 hours that will work also.

Why is the system closed (vents closed, relying on the relief valve for protection) during the mixing and settling period? Is it to prevent loss of Methanol? Would leaving the vent open and condensing the Methanol vapor be acceptable? Maybe condensing it and letting it drip back in?

Anyway, I guess that is enough for now. I was up late last night with visions of how to set up my small tank running through my head. Maybe I should have been counting sheep.

-Jim