BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Biodiesel Quality    gummy substance
Page 1 2 

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
gummy substance
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted
Hello

I have been making and running biodiesel for over a year now and have had some issues. The main issue I have is I found a gummy/tar like substance in my fuel tank. Boiling water will not disolve it the best thing I found was denatured alcohol (ethanol). Bio has been cleaned and dried. Unsure where this substance is coming from. I will attach some more specific information. I hope someone has some ideas.

Thanks


Daniel


Word DocBiodiesel_mystery_substance.doc (22 Kb, 47 downloads)
 
Location: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: June 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
2014 Sponsor

posted Hide Post
Are you mixing bio and petrol in the tank? Are they mixed in a separate tank and then added or are they mixed in the tank you're having issues with?


www.MurphysMachines.Com
The best Do-it-Yourself Construction Plans on the Internet!
Waste Oil Heating - Biodiesel Systems
Biodiesel Pumps Made In The USA
 
Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
All petro diesel is added to the truck fuel tank


Daniel
 
Location: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: June 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
2014 Sponsor

posted Hide Post
It is my understanding that mixing the two fuels inside the vehicles fuel tank is not the best way to do it.

I seem to remember there is something going on with an ion polarity issue between the two fuels and when they are mixed, this polarity thing causes a particulate drop-out that manifests itself as a sludge.

As I understand it, you're supposed to mix the two fuels in a separate tank and then send them through a filter to avoid the sludge issue.

I think that mixing in the vehicles tank once isn't any problem but if you make a habit of it, the sludge can build up.

Sure wish one of the chemistry guru's would jump in on this discussion because my knowledge in this area is limited.


www.MurphysMachines.Com
The best Do-it-Yourself Construction Plans on the Internet!
Waste Oil Heating - Biodiesel Systems
Biodiesel Pumps Made In The USA
 
Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Murphy is correct. To avoid such problems mix outside the vehicle tank, let it settle, then filter as delivered into the tank.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
I did a Google search for the terms; Oxidation biodiesel polymerization and got, on Journey to Forever "Oxidation/polymerisation don't only affect the drying oils, there are also semidrying oils, many of which are commonly used to make biodiesel". Linseed oil is a drying oil. If you've ever seen the gummy stuff that forms when it polymerizes, then compare that to your gummy buildup. Diesel fuel also oxidizes and forms varnishes. I have to study it some to give you a better answer.
 
Location: Texas | Registered: April 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
In the attachment to the message I mentioned the substance was found in a steel drum after I stored bio in it. The drum was used to store petrol diesel but there was very little residual fuel in the drum.

I have often added petro diesel to my tank when the temp was cold of away from home and needed fuel. So there has been maybe 250-350 gallons of petro diesel added to the tank over the past year.


Daniel
 
Location: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: June 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member

posted Hide Post
When diesel fuel comes out of the pump it is fairly cold, being stored in underground tanks. If your biodiesel is not fully converted or contains high melting point fats or both you could be experiencing a gelling of sorts which is causing the heavier elements to drop out of solution when the two temperatures collide.

I have blended in-tank multiple times in the winter and have not ever had a problem with it.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Legal Eagle

I have an attachment on the first post that describes my process and issues in more detail. I did not post it due to its length. However I always 3/27 test my bio after the second reaction to determine if product is fully converted. I get some oil and let the glycerol settle for about 1 hour. After glycerol settles take sample from top. Mix 100 ml of methanol with 12ml of bio. Often the mixture clears almost instantly, sometimes it is cloudy if it remains cloudy or has any fallout I will mix a small batch of methoxide, depending on how much fallout I have, and react again. I will do this until I have no fallout. I was under the impression if I did this it would insure that my bio was fully converted.

However I do not know how to determine if I have high melting point fats as you have mentioned.

You also mentioned that heavier elements may fall out when the two temperatures collide. The gummy substance was all over the tank bottom, sides and top with the bottom having the highest amount.

And I have noticed the fuel tank on my truck is warm after it has been driven. I think this is due to the heating element in the water separator and filter bowl. I believe this engine recirculates fuel back to the tank as it is ran over the hot element. So there should be a significant temperature difference between the bio in the tank and petro diesel that is added.

I have also taken a clear jug and filled it 1/2 with bio and 1/2 with petro diesel to see if I can make the gummy substance appear. Conditions may not be exactly the same but I figured it was worth a try.


Daniel
 
Location: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: June 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
I do not know how to determine if I have high melting point fats

Place a sample in a sealed jar in the fridge, the HMPE will settle out.

If there is any residual methanol/glycerol in the BD when it goes into the tank, it will form the 'gummy substance' you describe when the methanol evaporates and the glycerol settles out. Also the 'gummy substance' can be from more than one source. The longer BD can settle before it goes in the vehicle, the less 'gummy substance' will form in the tank.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I beleive it is due to mixing dino and bio in the tank as mentioned above jeffrey s brooks did a lot of work on this style of blending you can veiw his work it is worth a look. Also even when fully converted and water washed and cleaned bio i have found that minute amounts of dark liquid i assume to be glycerol will drop out over time, I get around this by tapping my fuel off gently under gravity leaving 20% behind so as to not draw off the sediment this is cleaned out after every 3-6mths.
 
Location: south australia | Registered: November 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gilfish:
jeffrey s brooks did a lot of work on this style of blending you can veiw his work it is worth a look.


I beg to Differ.
Jeffrey is a man clearly not of sound mind and has all sorts of obsessive compulsive disorder issues going on. He has been banned from every forum going bar his own and his theories and information has repeatedly been shown to be flawed by people on every forum he has been on for however briefly.

I think one look at his madmax style van he cut holes in the chassis with a gas axe and has said that his injectors clog and have to be cleaned every 1000 miles along with going through an injector pump every year or so really tell the story about the guy. I particularly like his reccomendations for 50% unleaded to be mixed with oil. He's about the only person I have ever read of that thinks that's a good idea.

Follow who you will ( even if it is a self ordained Buddhist monk that the rest of that group have gone to pains to distance themselves from) but far and away I have found that guy to have the very WORST info and reccomendations of anyone in this game.

Now if you want to do damage or have problems with your Vehicle, This IS definitely the guy to follow.
Just because someone rants a lot an insists they are right and everyone else in the world is an idiot, that doesn't make it true one bit.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Legal Eagle:

I have blended in-tank multiple times in the winter and have not ever had a problem with it.


On occasion I also splash Dino directly in to the tank and have had no issues. I did a 50/50 test outside the tank to show myself and a customer what happens when you splash blend. Not sure if my results are typical but they became one with no seperation or fallout after sitting for days. {Quote}

I'm not familiar with Ion Polarity issues, If Murphy said it I believe it !!!
The commercial guys splash blend directly in to the transports
on their way to making a delivery. I read a report somewhere that the I-75 corridor was tested for fuel quality and found most of the Bio to be out of spec. Have to wonder now how much sludge is building up in the tanks at those truck stops ??


{Quote} Thanks:
After glycerol is drained and 3/27 passed I slowly heat processor to 90ºC and distill off as much methanol as I can.
The oil then is pumped hot into a open top settling tank with an air bubbler for about 2 days. Residual glycerol falls to the bottom and is drained off. Process above is repeated until I have 2 batches of biodiesel in the settling tank.{Quote}

I to after demething push my hot fuel in to an open top container to circulate and bubble to drive off residual methanol( No way to get it all in the demeth process with out risking reverse reaction).
I only circulate and bubble for about 4 hours and then settle for another day or so. Once the methanol is gone everything drops to the bottom. I then pump it in to the wood chip drums and circulate for a day or so before final filtration ( Dry resin and 1 Micron polisher).
Check Legal Eagles link to his wood chip design , It's what I used and it works well.
IMO settling after bubbling then residence time in the wood chips should take care of your problem
and would keep you from mixing batches in your open top settling tank.It would also keep your first batch from being exposed to the atmosphere for too long.
I don;t know who Jeffrey Brooks is, I do know that there's only a handful of people I really trust on this site. You have three of the best already involved in this thread.
Good Luck
regards
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Thanks for all the responses. I have been watching the mixture of bio and petro diesel and I see no gummy substance. The bio in the refrigerator test has no fallout only loss of clarity which is expected. However since I have been making bio I have had different suppliers of WVO but I think they use pretty much the same type oil. Which is a mixture of different oils with a high percentage of soybean oil. The oil usually has some additives such as TBHQ and Citric Acid added as a preservative and Dimethylpolysiloxne added as an anti foaming agent.

I remember talking to a local home brewer who had ran over a 1000gal of bio in his dodge pickup and described a similar substance in his tank. The way he found the problem was further investigation after his injector pump had to be replaced. He described his process and it sounded like he was making quality bio. He stopped making bio.

I talked to mechanic at the local cat rental store and he said they get equipment in with injector pumps clogged with black gum. He said the gum is from people running bio in the equipment.

I have noticed a strong smell of varnish coming from my fuel tanks where I have mixed bio and petro. I also smell this coming from the bio-petro test mentioned earlier. I do not smell this from any of my tanks that have only diesel fuel in them or any tanks that have only bio in them. Wondering if anyone else out there who may be blending the two fuels in tank has noticed this smell coming from their tanks they are blending in. Or has anyone noticed the gummy substance on their fuel filters?


Daniel
 
Location: Mobile, Alabama | Registered: June 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
mechanic at the local cat rental store and he said they get equipment in with injector pumps clogged with black gum. He said the gum is from people running bio in the equipment.

As we've seen demonstrated many times on this and other forums "bio" can be just about anything from unfiltered fryer oil to ASTM spec biodiesel. People are likely to pour just about anything into the vehicle tank just to 'save' a few bucks on fuel.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Probably should have been more specific, in the first year or two I had to blend petroleum products, which I term dino as my bio was predominantly from lard fat. I suffered from clogged filter and sediment trap, the substance resembled a thick dark black/red brown substance that smelled like coal tar. As fat/lard derived bio is the least type of bio to polymerise I assumed it to be from blending so I stopped blending and use only bio. I have had no fuel related problems for the last 3 years and have never sen that black crap since.
In regards to the other two posts referring to Brooks a persons idiosyncrasies and other weird slants in their personal life should not deter anyone from viewing their work for anyone to make an objective and discerning assessment of it. To restrict oneself to 1 or 2 experts is not prudent either. Every man is a volume you just need to know how to read them. Good luck with your endeavors Hands. andy
 
Location: south australia | Registered: November 17, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gilfish:
In regards to the other two posts referring to Brooks a persons idiosyncrasies and other weird slants in their personal life should not deter anyone from viewing their work for anyone to make an objective and discerning assessment of it. To restrict oneself to 1 or 2 experts is not prudent either. Every man is a volume you just need to know how to read them. Good luck with your endeavors Hands. andy


Fish:
Just for he record,,
My response said nothing about Mr. Brooks except that I do not know him.
Additionally, I mentioned a handful of people I trust ,,, never said anything about not listening to all or at least most!!

I'm old enough to realize what a Dumbass I am and that slants and Idiosyncrasies
can get you far enough out of the box to fix problems !!
Roll Eyes

regards to all !!
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
I've found the black tar-like substance in my VW front tank and in my Ford rear tank. Each vehicle has two tanks, and I've only found the 'tar' in the tanks that get both dino and biodiesel. The VW front tank gets filled with dinodiesel at the start of winter driving season. One fillup lasts all winter. The front/main tank has a fine-mesh pickup filter that gets gummed up, blocking fuel flow enough to register on the 'filter condition' gage on the dash. I've had to clean out the screen and tank twice in the last 5 years, which doesn't seem too bad, now that I know how to do it.
The Ford rear tank had a layer nearly 1/2 inch thick, covered by a clear, clean-looking layer of fuel. It smelled strongly like paint, indicating polymerization was taking place. It had only been driven about 100 miles in nearly 2 years, so the rear tank was only partly filled with a mix of dino/biodiesel. Earlier this year I started driving it again, only to discover the rear tank couldn't be used - no fuel flow. Dropping the tank discovered the thick layer of 'tar'. I cleaned it out with a hot mixture of water/KOH, repeated several times.
The Ford front tank has only been used for biodiesel, and has no layer, even after sitting for 2 years. The VW rear tank is used alternately for biodiesel and SVO, but not dino-diesel, and has no layer. Whatever the 'tar' is, only occurs in my fuel tanks that A) occasionally combine biodiesel and dino-diesel, and B) have hot fuel returning from the engine. I've got a jar of mixed bio/dinodiesel that has not formed any 'tar', so I assume the jar doesn't duplicate the necessary conditions. What is the difference? An obvious difference is the temperature. The jar sits at room temperature. The fuel tanks get pretty warm, but more important is that the returning fuel got HOT as it passed through the IP and injectors. The fuel in the vehicles also contacts several different metals - some brass fuel fittings, steel fuel tanks and lines, etc.
My greatest suspicion is that the combination of the following things can cause the formation 'tar':
A) brief exposure of a mix of bio/dinodiesel to rather high temperature as it passes through the fuel system
B) subsequent time for the 'cooked' fuel blend to react and settle out as 'tar' in the tank
C) possible contribution of exposure to metals known to promote polymerization (iron/steel, copper/brass)
As to what the 'tar' is? I don't know for sure, but it is not simply soap or glycerin. It doesn't set up like polymerized oil - it isn't rubbery. In fact, it behaves almost exactly like roofing tar or asphalt - very, very viscous and capable of slowly flowing to the lowest points in a fuel tank. It may be a reaction product of biodiesel and a dino-diesel additive, resulting in a hybrid polymer.
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
I had another thought about it today. the 'tar' bears a strong resemblance to 'dried out gasoline', as found in seldom used fuel tanks and inside carburetors that have sat for a long time without proper long-term-storage preparation. This makes me wonder if the source of the 'tar' might actually be from the dino, rather than from the bio, and that the combination causes a reaction pulls out the 'tar' from the dino. I still think that heat is part of the puzzle.
How can we test this hypothesis?
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I know both acetone and brake cleaner dissolve the gummy goo I've gotten on occasion like there's no tomorrow.
 
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca | Registered: July 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Biodiesel Quality    gummy substance

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014