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Jan Warnqvist's Conversion Test- Outstanding! (3/27)
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I don't think the reference stuff is normal biodiesel (based on hearing that Randall had to mess with the formula to get these to stay stable while being shaken up a lot in transit or something like that), plus I think biodiesel in a pHlip test is supposed to react with some of the dyes to produce the results.

I guess the way to tell would be to take some biodiesel that passes 3/27, see if it passes pHlip, then take the same sample off the top of the pHlip test and then test it again with 3/27
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ah, that would make a lot of since. I guess it would have to have some sort of special formula so as to stay stable for a while.
I'm not saying anything bad about the product, I actually really like it. I was just trying to find something that would pass the 3/27 test. The bio-d we are making won't for reasons unknown.
We are working on it though.


Pushing the envelope for Biodiesel production in Oklahoma.
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Location: Edmond | Registered: March 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a question about re-processing a batch that did not turn out. This has not happened to me yet, but I doubt I will be reprocess free since I have only made two batches.
If you do reprocess a small batch and are hoping no glycerin drops out and it doesnt, what does drop out?


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Location: Southern Minnesota | Registered: March 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, if you don't use too much catalyst, you will get nothing. If you do use too much you will get "glop".


Pushing the envelope for Biodiesel production in Oklahoma.
www.OkieBiofuel.com
 
Location: Edmond | Registered: March 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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After running my 40 gallon batch of virgin oil for an hour, I simply turn off the pump and take a quick 24 ounce sample (restart the pump). Let the sample sit for 15 minutes and draw 3 ml to mix with 27ml of methanol. If some oil drops out in 5 minutes I mix up some more methanol plus NaOH and literally dump it in. You will have to determine the amounts.

Since we titrated the oil correctly, I believe more methanol must be added, but if the oil had some water we probably need more caustic as well. I would not add more then .5-1gram/L of original 160L's.

I wait another 45 minutes and draw another sample. I have not needed to add more ingredients a third time. After adding more methanol and lye I always end up with more soap which simply requires more washing.
 
Location: Hanford, CA | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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King, sounds like what you are doing is similar to the 80/20 process. Have you tried that? You may reduce you total amount of meth and lye.
 
Location: Somewhere in the swamp... | Registered: April 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hey everyone,

This afternoon I did the 3/27 conversion test for my dry washed biodiesel. I used base number of 5 and titration number of 1. Methanol that I used is 20% from the volume of waste vegetable oil. I have air bubble washed the biodiesel 3 times until wash water become quite clear. After washing, I dry the biodiesel by bubbling air through biodiesel.

I mixed 27ml methanol with 3 ml of my biodiesel and shaked it, let it settle down for 20 min. The result that I got is there is some droplet of bidodiesel settled to the bottom, and there is cloudy methanol. The result is shown in the following picture.



What is the possible problems with it??
I am really welcome any opinion.


Thanks,
Nicholas
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nicholas its under reacted. either it needed longer reaction time or more Lye, the best time to test is after a 10 minute settling time during processing, this way if it fails the 3/27 you can give the batch further reaction time.

steve


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Location: West London | Registered: March 23, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by irokcj5:
King, sounds like what you are doing is similar to the 80/20 process. Have you tried that? You may reduce you total amount of meth and lye.


I'm not familiar with the 80/20 process you are referring to. I'm definitely interested in reducing methanol though. Any links?

P.S. Good to see another 4Wheeler here. Now I just need to swap out the fuel injected 5.0L in my 70 Bronco for a diesel. Nah! Smile
 
Location: Hanford, CA | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ano1987:

What is the possible problems with it??
I am really welcome any opinion.

Thanks,
Nicholas


If the bio is dry, why couldn't you mix it with dry (no prewash) glycerin and the heat it up to 130F. Then add some more methoxide?
 
Location: Hanford, CA | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I'm not familiar with the 80/20 process you are referring to. I'm definitely interested in reducing methanol though. Any links?


CBT article is here .


Andrew

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Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 1958steveflying:
Nicholas its under reacted. either it needed longer reaction time or more Lye, the best time to test is after a 10 minute settling time during processing, this way if it fails the 3/27 you can give the batch further reaction time.

steve


Last time when making biodiesel, I always use to give 2 to 3 days time for settling process. After mixing the WVO with methoxide, I left the mixture for 3 days. And For every bubble washing process, I always give spacing of 2 days between each washing processes. After drying process, I let the biodiesel for 1 days, and the next day, I held the 3/27 convertion test. Is the spacing time enough for biodiesel to complete reacted?? Do you think that there is unsufficient amount of sodium hydroxide has been mixed??

I am just wondering about the temperature for both biodiesel and methanol in the 3/27 convertion test. What is the minimum temperature?

Actually this is my biodiesel picture:



Thanks,
Nicholas
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by KingOf_Pain:
quote:
Originally posted by ano1987:

What is the possible problems with it??
I am really welcome any opinion.

Thanks,
Nicholas


If the bio is dry, why couldn't you mix it with dry (no prewash) glycerin and the heat it up to 130F. Then add some more methoxide?



Does it mean that I have to mixed the biodiesel that failed the 3/27 convertion test with glycerin and heat it up to 130F?? and add methoxide? What is the volume of glycerin and percentage of sodium hydroxide in the methoxide?


Thanks,
Nicholas
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nicholas, I don't believe there are any standards to follow here.
I would suggest you mix 800ml of your failed bio-d with 200ml of dry glycerin product from one of your batches. Heat the mixture to 130F. While it is heating mix 50-100ml of methanol with .5-1gram of NaOH in a sealed container. Once the bio-D and glycerin are up to temp, and the NaOH has completely dissolved, combined the two in a sealed container and shake for 20 seconds. Done! Once you get fair seperation draw 3ml off the top for 3/27 test.
Let us know how it turns out. I'm not even sure if adding the glycerin back in is neccessary, but I know it's there when I have added more methoxide and made a failed batch Pass.

Good luck,
 
Location: Hanford, CA | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi King of Pain,
quote:
I would suggest you mix 800ml of your failed bio-d with 200ml of dry glycerin product from one of your batches.


Do you have any testing to show that adding glycerine/byproduct to the reprocess helps achieve better conversion when compared to reprocess without the glycerine?

If so, I'd like to see it.

Reason being, in theory, adding glycerine would impede the reaction, not assist it.

This is why we remove the byproduct in 2 stage base base.


Andrew

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03 Dodge 2500 B100 homebrew
79 Rabbit B100 homebrew
 
Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"I'm not even sure if adding the glycerin back in is neccessary, but I know it's there when I have added more methoxide and made a failed batch Pass."


I just read the two stage base/base process and it does not appear to be beneficial to add the glycerin back in.
So, it appears Nicholas could simply add more methoxide to his failed bio-D and after shaking the unreacted oil would seperate into bio-d and glycerin.
 
Location: Hanford, CA | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by KingOf_Pain:
Nicholas, I don't believe there are any standards to follow here.
I would suggest you mix 800ml of your failed bio-d with 200ml of dry glycerin product from one of your batches. Heat the mixture to 130F. While it is heating mix 50-100ml of methanol with .5-1gram of NaOH in a sealed container. Once the bio-D and glycerin are up to temp, and the NaOH has completely dissolved, combined the two in a sealed container and shake for 20 seconds. Done! Once you get fair seperation draw 3ml off the top for 3/27 test.
Let us know how it turns out. I'm not even sure if adding the glycerin back in is neccessary, but I know it's there when I have added more methoxide and made a failed batch Pass.

Good luck,


Thanks for your replay.

Is it possible to do titration test again for the biodiesel that I have produced?? As far as I know, the titration test is used to find how many grams of catalyst required to compensate free fatty acids. Can I use titration test to find the amount of Sodium Hydroxide as catalyst needed to be added to my finished biodiesel products?? So that both monoglycerides, diglycerides and triglycerides can be reacted into methyl esters.

I am planning to take 1000ml of my biodiesel and mix it again with 200ml sodium methoxide. Is it a good idea??

The failure of 3/27 conversion test, does it mean that there is not enough amount of catalyst and methanol used?? If so, can I use more methanol (25% of WVO volume) and more amount of catalyst?? Or is there any possible suggestion according to this failure??

I am also wondering, can I still use the biodiesel that fails 3/27 conversion test in diesel engine?? Is there any potential problems by doing so??


Thanks,
Nicholas
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Nicholas

Titrating biodiesel that has failed the Warnqvest Test (3/27) will not tell you the information you want to know.

The "Standard" reprocess for biodiesel made to a formula that should have passed but did not is 1g NaOH mixed into 35ml methanol for every litre of unwashed biodiesel being reprocessed and 1g NaOH mixed into 50ml methanol for every litre of washed and dried biodiesel being re-processed.
Do a test litre first to check the results

If you consistantly fail the Warnqvest test (3/27) you can increase the NaOH/KOH or the methanol or both.
NaOH/KOH is the cheapest one to increase
I would start by increasing the "Base" amount to 6 NaOH/ 8.5 KOH and see what happens






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Tilly:
Hello Nicholas

Titrating biodiesel that has failed the Warnqvest Test (3/27) will not tell you the information you want to know.

The "Standard" reprocess for biodiesel made to a formula that should have passed but did not is 1g NaOH mixed into 35ml methanol for every litre of unwashed biodiesel being reprocessed and 1g NaOH mixed into 50ml methanol for every litre of washed and dried biodiesel being re-processed.
Do a test litre first to check the results

If you consistantly fail the Warnqvest test (3/27) you can increase the NaOH/KOH or the methanol or both.
NaOH/KOH is the cheapest one to increase
I would start by increasing the "Base" amount to 6 NaOH/ 8.5 KOH and see what happens



Tilly, thanks for your reply.

I will try to mix my biodiesel with 1g of NaOH and 50ml methanol. Do we need to heat up the biodiesel before pouring the methoxide into it?? Until what temp??

I am just wondering about the amount of NaOH and volume of methanol. How to identify those numbers?? Is it based on the experiments have been done previously by someone else?? Or is there any equation can be used to calculate those numbers??

And when comparing the amount of NaOH and methanol used for unwashed biodiesel with washed-dried biodiesel, why are they different??

When re-processing the biodiesel that fails 3/27 conversion test, will it be any by-products such as glycerol settle out?? and is it necessary to wash and dry the re-processed biodiesel again??

In your reply, you mention about increasing the base number to 6 for NaOH and 8.5 for KOH. Do we need also to increase the percentage volume of methanol (>25%) when mixing for the next batch??


Thanks,
Nicholas
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Nicholas

Tests have shown that provided everything remains liquid, the temperature the reaction is performed at is not a limiting factor as to the quality of the biodiesel produced.
However, it is quicker if you heat your biodiesel, and that is not difficult to do if it is washed and dried.

The numbers were arrived at by the Chemist Neutral who has many years of biodiesel and alternate fuel experiance. Over time they seem to be about right for most cases.

The difference between washed and unwashed is because about 2% of unwashed biodiesel is methanol so you already have about 20ml methanol in every litre of unwashed biodiesel.

In my experience, there is not always a glycerine fall out when re-processing.

I would first just increase the NaOH/KOH and see what happens because it is cheaper than increasing methanol.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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