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Hi Guys
Hope you can help all been going well with making bio fuel
Till now been doing small batches.I did 12litres with a pottasium methanol mix
all seemed ok tests ok PH8 abit high so i read up add vinegar which i worked
at 4ml put in oil with stir wash water wham chicken soup 24 hours wont seperate
I hope the above you can help me with
Kevin
 
Registered: January 12, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Kevin
Not sure what you are trying to do measuring pH,but you have made an emulsion.To break it ,heat 1lt of water and add as much salt as you can get to dissolve,get it good and hot and add it to your emulsion-(watering can is good, fine spray).As the salt water sinks thru the emulsion you should see the emulsion start to break.
 
Location: UK | Registered: October 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Kevin
quote:
PH8 abit high so

-at what point are you measuring ph, is this after your wash, or before, you can't measure ph of the oil itself, it has no ph, only the contaminants in it have ph. therefore you need to liberate them by water washing a sample then check the ph of the water.
-If you are intent on acid quenching your wash with vinigar, it takes 7ml per ltr of wash water. right now, sounds like you have an emulsion happening, so add vinigar to warm water (not sure how much space you have)and gently mix it in let the batch sit, this sould break the emulsion. If not, drain what water you can,don't through out any of the thick stuff, it contains good biodiesel. then repeat the acid wash stage but decrease your wash water amount to 5% of the oil volume. after the first two washes, increase the water volume to 8% and never any more than that and you will never have another emulsion. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I was always under the impression vinegar was a big no-no.


Alvin
'01 F250 7.3 4x4 Lariat Crew
'95 Mercedes Benz E300 D
 
Location: Seattle | Registered: January 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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binuya
-you can use vinigar, phoshporic acid, sulfuric acid, muratic acid and so on you just have to use the correct amount. Most posters here use salt, but call me old school, I don't want salt resadue in my biodiesel, there is no test, that I know of, that will ensure all the salt is removed. On the other hand, if you use too much acid in the quench, the biodiesel will be acidic, very easy to check for this condition. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom,

Thanks for that. I guess the key is to know how much vinegar is a relatively safe amount. On the few occasions I've had to deal with an emulsion, my thinking was, since I water wash, was to run a few extra wash cycles to reduce chances of any salt ending up in my bio. I am more comfortable with that versus risking splitting soaps to ffa's.


Alvin
'01 F250 7.3 4x4 Lariat Crew
'95 Mercedes Benz E300 D
 
Location: Seattle | Registered: January 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Salt is going to be corrosive to steel. I've been able to break any emulsions using the glycerin from what I just drained off,and letting it sit overnight. I think the glycerin absorbs any residual methanol. I think residual methanol is the culprit to emulsions on the first wash. Also using to much methanol for the reaction with not allow the glycerin to settle out of the bio like it should.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Alvin
-yes, when you neutralize the soap you release some fatty acid back into the biodiesel, all biodiesel contains some fatty acid (thats what I am told by the chemist in Greece), that is why we check the biodiesel for acidity. How do you check for salt? Big Grin Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Heatbeater
-chemistry, it takes just the right chemistry to form an emulsion. too much water too much methanol too much soap, any or all of the above. the easy one to control is the water amount!!! I agree, the byproduct breaks emulsions, just not as fast as salt or acid. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Biotom:
Alvin
-yes, when you neutralize the soap you release some fatty acid back into the biodiesel, all biodiesel contains some fatty acid (thats what I am told by the chemist in Greece), that is why we check the biodiesel for acidity. How do you check for salt? Big Grin Tom


Tom,

Well, you've got me there. Blind faith? On a normal 45 gal batch I'll go through 50-60 gallons water. On a salt fixed emulsion batch I'd have to say almost double the water. Looking at my logbook, my worst one went through 9 total wash cycles. (10-12 gal. ea.) I will also go further than usual with the drying process. (And I will actually do the quantitative moisture testing, as opposed to being complacent about it like I am most of the time)


Alvin
'01 F250 7.3 4x4 Lariat Crew
'95 Mercedes Benz E300 D
 
Location: Seattle | Registered: January 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Alvan
-I'm not trying to sell you anything here Big Grin but lets compare washes, you use 50 gal (190ltr) water to wash 170 ltr of biodiesel.
-In my minimal water wash technique,for a 160 ltr batch
--3 static washes using 5% water total 24 ltr
-- up to 7 pump washes using 8% total 90 ltr (I mostly cheat on this amount because I have to carry it by pail(10ltr) from the house to the shop)(no hot water in the shop)
--TOTAL amount of water used 114 ltr.

-there is not enough water in any of these wash steps to cause an emulsion even with pump washing. first two pump washes 1 minute (blue pump) next two 5 minutes each, the remainder 30 minutes each.
-the water seperates from the oil very quickly, the water can be drained and a new wash started within 1 hour. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tom,

True, I use more water than is necessary. It's all about getting stuck in a mindless routine that works for me. Same exact equipment I started with over 2 years ago when I brewed my first real batch. Time to put a pump on my wash tank.


Alvin
'01 F250 7.3 4x4 Lariat Crew
'95 Mercedes Benz E300 D
 
Location: Seattle | Registered: January 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
-there is not enough water in any of these wash steps to cause an emulsion even with pump washing. first two pump washes 1 minute (blue pump) next two 5 minutes each, the remainder 30 minutes each.


It is fine that this combo is working for you but the statement "there is not enough water in any of these wash steps to cause an emulsion even with pump washing." is false.

The reason you are not getting an emulsion has to do with the temp., amount of mixing, amount of soap, etc.

I have seen very stubborn emulsions made with less than 5% water. It involved high soap, longer pump time and cold temps of both fuel and water.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against pump mixing for washing. I just don't want people to feel like they are always safe if they stay under 8% water.


Andrew

http://biodieselcommunity.org
03 Dodge 2500 B100 homebrew
79 Rabbit B100 homebrew
 
Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Guys
Thanks for your help Bio Tom i check ph (acid levels) after methanol stage
and then added vinegar to first wash stage to try and reduce ph level.
Only just starting out i thought this was the way to do it.
Also added salt to mix it has now cleared my chicken soup a treat
just doing a bubble wash now bio abit misty but give it a couple
of washes and hope it will clear.
Thanks for your help all
Kevin
 
Registered: January 12, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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