BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS






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3/27
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Looking for help. I am trying to get my producers license.
The IRS took samples of my fuel and came back with a Total Glycerin % at 0.328 and Comments (Sample does not meet the specification of Total Glycerin. The presence of approximately 2.1% unconverted triglycerides (oil/fat) causes the total glycerin to fail.
My question is I do the 3/27 test while reacting, after Centrifuging the Glycerin off, After Water washing and after drying. I will not let it come out of the reactor unless it passes at least two test.
I took a sample of the fuel they sampled at the same place they did and I still have no un reacted oil falling out.
I read to do a better check use 25-225, I did this and no un reacted oil fail out. I added another 12.5mil to the same test and nothing fell out.
I tried the 100/900 and there was a small amount fell out.
My question is: Is there another easy test for un reacted oil?
I sent two samples of the same oil to a lab to get it done with a GC. I have not got the results back yet.
Please let me know what you think.
 
Registered: April 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A1
-This past summer I visited a biodiesel demonstration, and the the director of biofuels (Ph.D) said he sees this often, fuel that passes 3/27 at 68f but fails the GC for total glycerides! He said it it a more reliable test(3/27) if done at 65f I know this is contraversial here, but hey don't shoot the messanger.He suggested keeping the methanol for 3/27 test in the freezer! PM me if you want this persons email. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No, there is no simple test that will take the place of a GC test performed to ASTM D6584-08.
If you go back and read the 3/27 test procedure that is posted to this forum, the only claim Tilly makes is-
"If the biodiesel completely dissolves into the methanol and no oil settles out on the bottom of the container you have very high conversion biodiesel."
People are just kidding themselves if they think there is some magic temperature or shaking technique that will give ASTM results.
 
Location: Southside | Registered: January 12, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All of this said, I have to say that after hundreds, perhaps thousands of samples, I can easily vouch for a good correlation between a proper 27/3 test and hitting ASTM. It's really uncanny.

Remember the following:

1) All ingredients should be at the right temperature. 68 deg F will give you the most accurate results, but if you want to spike it in favor of likelier fails (making your fuel quality better as you try to compensate), you can go lower. I see this as inefficient at bigger batch levels, but fine for the homebrewer.

2) You absolutely must give the test time before reading the results. 10 minutes, minimum. I can't tell you how many times I've seen results that looked great at first but became fails after 10 minutes (we do a 2-stage base process, and test after the first stage, so I see fails every day). A half hour can be even better. Longer than that might be more likely to give you false fails.

3) A way to quantify fall-out can really help you understand the results better, especially if you use them the way I do, and base 2nd stage ingredients on the amount of fall-out after the first stage. Centrifuge tubes that taper to a near point at the bottom, and have milliliters marked on the side, can be a real boon in this effort.

4) Do not take the results as written in stone. You have to have a way to double-check them once in a while. For us, we have our own SafTest machine and Gas Chromatography unit, and we also send regular samples to a 3rd party lab. For a homebrewer, perhaps a monthly use of a 3rd party lab would do the trick. If you can't afford that, consider at least sending out samples to your homebrewer friends to see if they get the same results. Chemistry professors in your area may also be excited to help.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
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fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
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Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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2) You absolutely must give the test time before reading the results. 10 minutes, minimum. I can't tell you how many times I've seen results that looked great at first but became fails after 10 minutes (we do a 2-stage base process, and test after the first stage, so I see fails every day). A half hour can be even better. Longer than that might be more likely to give you false fails.


Ok, I have a problem (again) with this. If there is no fallout after 30 minutes,where are the triglycerides coming from after that ? If there aren't any there aren't any, but if there are some then it's a fail regardless, no ? Is that like having an ASTM passing grade with, say 0.161 total glycerine, but that would be enough to cause fallout in the 3/27 test ? That would make the 3/27 a very accurate and sensitive test to conduct. I'm not saying that it's not good or that I don't use it as well, but I still have questions about it.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you leave the sample sit for a day or two covered there will be fall out, but is this trygiceride or just the methanol giving up the biodiesel? I would like to think it is biodiesel, but don't have the testing stuff to varify.Seems that what Kumar is saying it is not tryglycerides. Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by Legal Eagle:

Ok, I have a problem (again) with this. If there is no fallout after 30 minutes,where are the triglycerides coming from after that ?


I agree with your logic, however I have had samples that appeared good, but when left overnight I get fallout. I thought maybe as the temp dropped the solubility dropped, but the glycerides didn't recombine with the methanol when the temp came back up. Really just guessing though.

A sure fire way to test is to re process a sample and see if any glycerin drops out.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Legal's questions are good ones from a scientific perspective, but I feel fine ignoring them, based on my observed correlation between 27/3 and more sophisticated methods.

Remember, though: I am in a unique position, because 27/3 is merely a tool I use during the reaction, and it is double-checked and regularly triple-checked by other, better methods before the fuel leaves the plant. I have never had a situation though where 27/3 clearly failed me on a fundamental level. It succeeds 100% in telling me a) how converted the fuel is after the first stage in our base/base process, and b) when conversion is "finished", at the end of the 2nd stage.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And I will feel free ignoring you too. Confused



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Legal Eagle:
And I will feel free ignoring you too. Confused


I'm ignoring your questions with regards to my operation! Clearly not ignoring you. Roll Eyes


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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