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How does soap QUANTITY(content) affects the quality of biodiesel?, how does the soap content in biodiesel affects diesel engines? my concern started after I had a batch of biodiesel that passed 3/27 with no drop out even after 24 hours. After the 1st wash cycle the biodiesel turned in to mayo. Also can any body explain to me what static wash means?

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06' Jetta, 2001 DURAMAX
Bio-Diesel Engines are adictive!
If you ever go to Mexico don't forget to fuel up your diesel engine, border diesel from Mexico is imported from the U.S. you'll pay around $2 USD! per/Gal


Imagebubblerinaction_copy.jpg (27 Kb, 63 downloads)
 
Location: Rio Rico, AZ | Registered: February 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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soap and conversion (what 3/27 tests for) are two separate issues, and it's not too uncommon to have both high soap and great conversion (because using lots of KOH will give you good conversion and also unfortunately can give you high soap).

Of course emulsions can be caused by getting glycerol byproduct into your wash tank, so that's something to look at.

At the request of engine manufacturers or Fuel Injection Equipment manufacturers who make very high-pressure injection systems, the ASTM spec for biodiesel recently changed to add a pair of 'metals' tests (the minerals in soap are metals), and it's not known yet what the correlation is between passing the ASTM metals tests and the soap content/catalyst content of the biodiesel. Meaning, you can test for soap at home, and you can test for metals in a lab, but I"m not sure if there's a conversion factor yet that says that if you have x percent KOH-based soap you'll fail the sodium/potassium test on ASTM if you were to test it)

The other reason why we care about soap is that it can either drop out as a thick material into your fuel tank (if amounts were high enough- something you have to REALLY mess up to have happen, like using your fuel within hours of making it without any washing or soap removal), or that it can carry any water it comes into contact with into your fuel system. For instance , one place where this could happen would be if there was water in your fuel tank or storage tank from condensation, or from buying bad diesel from a gas station, or from processing a previous batch of biodiesel incorrectly and not drying well).
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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By the way I became a real fan of static wash recently, had never tried it before but man did a lot of 'crap' settle into the water.

Basically, for static wash, let some water into your tank extremely gently. Let it sit overnight (or longer in my case) and drain without doing any bubbling or other circulation. Soap and especially any rogue glycerine (like if you'd accidentally gotten some into your wash tank) moves into the water. Some said brownian motion is the action there.
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Nicknack2

I agree with what Mark has said.

I do not understand your picture. Can you do a photo with a sample in a glass.

Emulsions are very rare with mist washing.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by girl mark:
. . . you can test for soap at home, and you can test for metals in a lab, but I"m not sure if there's a conversion factor yet that says that if you have x percent KOH-based soap you'll fail the sodium/potassium test on ASTM if you were to test it


I think there is a direct correlation between metals and soaps.

One (1) PPM of Sodium (Na) equates to 13.2 PPM of Sodium Oleate soap.
Likewise, an ASTM standard of five (5) PPM of sodium equates to 66.2 PPM of Sodium Oleate soap.

or:

One (1) PPM of Potassium (K) equates to 8.2 PPM of Potassium Oleate soap;
and, an ASTM standard of five (5) PPM of potassium equates to 41.1 PPM of potassium oleate soap.



Sodium has a molecular weight of 23 gm/mol. Sodium oleate (Na C18 H33 O2) has a molecular weight of 304.44 gm/mol. The percentage of Na in sodium oleate is 7.56% ((23/304.44)x100=7.56%).

If you determine, through laboratory analysis, that your sample of biodiesel contains 5 PPM of Na, then that sample of biodiesel contains 66.2 PPM of soap (assuming all Na was part of a soap molecules). Home brewers of biodiesel can measure the soap using the AOCS titration procedure.

The numbers for potassium are: molecular weight = 39 gm/mol and the molecular weight of potassium oleate is 320.4 gm/mol.

As you know, methyl esters are made from a variety of different fatty acids with different molecular weights. Therefore, there will be slight variations in the ratios of metals to soaps because of these variations. But, these value provide a close estimate.
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: February 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tilly, it is my wash bucket with the bubbler bubbling soap(only 18 liters at the time enough to make B5 for two tanks since that is what VW allows me to put on my 06' jetta), crazy hum? guys thanks for the replies, the tread got really technical I appreciate that!


06' Jetta, 2001 DURAMAX
Bio-Diesel Engines are adictive!
If you ever go to Mexico don't forget to fuel up your diesel engine, border diesel from Mexico is imported from the U.S. you'll pay around $2 USD! per/Gal
 
Location: Rio Rico, AZ | Registered: February 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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GM, please forgive my ignorance Roll Eyes, but what is brownian motion?? Confused


06' Jetta, 2001 DURAMAX
Bio-Diesel Engines are adictive!
If you ever go to Mexico don't forget to fuel up your diesel engine, border diesel from Mexico is imported from the U.S. you'll pay around $2 USD! per/Gal
 
Location: Rio Rico, AZ | Registered: February 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Producer,
Have you seen that lab samples verify the accuracy of the Na vs. soap calc?
 
Location: Texas | Registered: July 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by csp97:
Producer,
Have you seen that lab samples verify the accuracy of the Na vs. soap calc?


No, I just calculated the relationship based on molecular weights and algebraic conversions.
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: February 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, I did the same thing and got the same result as you. I'll think I'll send off a sample and get some lab comparison.
 
Location: Texas | Registered: July 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by girl mark:
The other reason why we care about soap is that it can either drop out as a thick material into your fuel tank (if amounts were high enough- something you have to REALLY mess up to have happen, like using your fuel within hours of making it without any washing or soap removal), or that it can carry any water it comes into contact with into your fuel system. For instance , one place where this could happen would be if there was water in your fuel tank or storage tank from condensation, or from buying bad diesel from a gas station, or from processing a previous batch of biodiesel incorrectly and not drying well).


In my experience, the soap concern is that even small amounts of soap left in washed and dried fuel will eventually settle to the bottom of whatever tank the fuel is in. If there is water present, a soap emulsion will occur, greatly expanding the capacity of that tiny amount of soap to gunk things up. The emulsion may pass through filters (even water-blocking ones) and in the worst case scenario, create pretty thick obstacles in the fuel injection pump and possibly the injectors themeselves. I believe that is what we are seeing in this pic of an opened up fuel injection pump:



Incidentally, in this '03 Golf, the stuff was cleaned out of the pump and apparently the car was fine from that point onward. Prior to the FIP being cleaned, it was having performance problems.

I'd hate to think of how big a hassle this kind of thing could become in the newer diesel engines.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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exacly Kumar,I love the principle of biodiesel, I love making it even when I only make about 5 gals of it at the time, but Im becoming scared that something may happen to my 06 Jetta's PD engine, as it is the engine is a delicate animal; now if I screw up the BD man o man I be in deep trouble and empty pockets, but anyways my next question is this, even after washing and washing over and over and drying the BD, how can one be sure that the excess meth and NAOH and soap have been removed??? just for the sake of keeping engines healthy?


06' Jetta, 2001 DURAMAX
Bio-Diesel Engines are adictive!
If you ever go to Mexico don't forget to fuel up your diesel engine, border diesel from Mexico is imported from the U.S. you'll pay around $2 USD! per/Gal
 
Location: Rio Rico, AZ | Registered: February 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Take a deep breath nicknack2. I didn't mean to scare people with that post. If you wash carefully, do soap testing (<50 PPM seems to be a good target, but a lot of people say that <150 PPM is perfectly fine), and dry your fuel carefully, you should be fine. If you have fuel storage, you can buy various things (in-tank socks are pretty cool, as are dessicant breather vents) to ensure water doesn't infiltrate. Basically, if you are making good fuel and taking a few simple precautions, you shouldn't have to worry about any of the things you mentioned- ESPECIALLY excess methanol. MeOH (my preferred shorthand) pretty much disappears into the washwater after the first wash. If you do a standard level of washing (extended continuous or 3 batches) and then dry your fuel, I could practically guarantee you don't have a problem with residual methanol.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Kumar, how much water per liter of BD do you use for the washes? and how do you test for soap?


06' Jetta, 2001 DURAMAX
Bio-Diesel Engines are adictive!
If you ever go to Mexico don't forget to fuel up your diesel engine, border diesel from Mexico is imported from the U.S. you'll pay around $2 USD! per/Gal
 
Location: Rio Rico, AZ | Registered: February 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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