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Has anyone quantified the 'Shakem Up' test??
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OK, I've run about 40 batches now in the past 30 day...yes, on an accelerated learning curve, burning hours each day trying to get a good hold of the science.

Here's the issue: Has anyone really defined the 'Shakem Up' test? I can get ALL of my runs to pass or fail, depending on how hard I shake. If I shake 'just right', some will come out with a middle layer, and others will look great...water is clear, biodiesel is clear and nothing in the middle.

If I do a shake test with any biodiesel, even the commercial stuff, and shake really hard, I get emulsion that won't break down within 30 minutes.

So, how long, how hard, how many times, is temperature an issue, how fast, how much air shold be above the sample? ALL of these can be a factor when doing a shakem up test.

ALSO, after I've determined what works for me, I've realized that it's a pretty good indicator of when to stop washing. The only difference is that the biodiesel isn't clear on top, but the water is, and there isn't any middle layer. Does anyone else do this to check for wash completeness?

Oh, here's a pic of 3 different shake results based on how hard I shook.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaun,


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Location: Bay Area, California | Registered: October 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello AwesomeNet


the "Shake-um up" test is not a valid test for conversion.
It is quite good at detecting soap.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
If I do a shake test with any biodiesel, even the commercial stuff


"commercial stuff" does not necessarily mean "good stuff" Smile


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Location: Nottingham UK | Registered: December 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The how hard you shook it thing is normal. The two liquids get mixed more the harder you shake plus you are mixing in more air so they take longer to settle. I'm betting if you look at all three of those bottles in say three hours they will look the same. If your stuff looks like the first bottle you are washed enough.


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Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: September 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Removing the cap helps settle it quicker.Like Tilly said, it is good at determining soap levels,but not much else.



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Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What is the solution to discovering that there is excess soap levels in the bio - does it just need to be washed or reprocessed. I thought that excess soap was a result of too much catalyst (is it too much catalyst added and just not processed for long enough?
 
Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Tilly:
Hello AwesomeNet


the "Shake-um up" test is not a valid test for conversion.
It is quite good at detecting soap.


Tilly is absolutely correct. Even tiny amounts of soap will be detected by this test, but it's really not good at ANYTHING else. If you don't want to or can't afford to do a G/C test for conversion, the next best thing is a 27/3 test properly done with all materials at around 68 deg F.

What I recommend as cheap "shade tree tests", not definitive, but as good an approximation of commercial tests as a no-budget operation could do:

For soap: "shake 'em up" test, pHlip test, or soap titration (see biodieselcommunity.org)

For acidity: pHlip test

For dryness: can you read newspaper clearly and easily through a half-pint jar?

For % conversion: short of G/C or other expensive tests, 27/3 is the only method I've seen that tells you anything.


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Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ACorder:
What is the solution to discovering that there is excess soap levels in the bio - does it just need to be washed or reprocessed. I thought that excess soap was a result of too much catalyst (is it too much catalyst added and just not processed for long enough?


Again, soap is not an indicator of level of conversion. I can make extremely well-converted, ASTM-spec fuel that has tons of soap and needs a lot of washing. Washing (whether wet-style or dry-style) is what removes soap. A lot of soap may indicate too much catalyst was used, but that really depends on how good you want your fuel to be. Sometimes, you have to essentially overload on catalyst to achieve the desired level of conversion.

In order to know whether your fuel needs re-processing, you really need to get to know the 27/3 test.


Kumar Plocher
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Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And you're shaking to hard to accurately test for soap, too. Its more of a "Swirl It Up" test. If you shake hard enough, the biodiesel will create micro-droplets in the water that LOOK like soap...but aren't. Swirl it around a few times, or turn the bottle end over end a few times and let it sit. It should separate in a minute or two. If you are a little aggressive, maybe 5 minutes. Longer than that and you shook too hard and the test isn't going to mean anything unless you let it sit for an hour or more.

At least in MY experience.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To Kumar's list of acceptable tests I'd add that the 'for dryness' test should also be done at a cool temperature- ideally, colder than your nighttime temps will go to (except that this runs into problems with gel point, which will confuse the issue for newcomers). Basically, to test for dryness, I put a sample in the fridge for a few minutes and wait for it to get down to 50F or so. If it's slightly hazy, there's water that's coming out of solution and could do so in the fuel tank at night and possibly could damage your fuel system when you drive on it.

Mark
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Also, like everyone else says, I'd suggest you ignore the shake-em-up test.

I think it's an semi-OK test to see if you might get emulsion, but that all depends on the hardness of your water and how hard or how long you mix, so it's kinda irrelevant as a 'pass-fail' test of anything.
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The shake-em-up test is best used for lowering triglyceride levels.

Put 1 liter of biodiesel in with 1 liter of water.. (make 2 bottles like this)

Put one in each hand and shake really hard. Do this many times per day for a long time and the next visit to your doctor, you should notice your triglyceride levels drop.


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Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Steve,

Like Mark says, there is no real pass or fail on this one.

The way I use this "test" is as an indicator of how washed my fuel is and as a predictor of how well it will dry.

I put test in quotes, because it is kind of a joke to call it a test... for the reasons mentioned - shaking vigor, water hardeness etc have an effect on the look.

With practice, it can be useful in terms of knowing how close to the end of the washing process you are and knowing how vigorously you can wash on the next cycle without getting an emulsion. You need to get a feel for it though. Try this - take samples that have been washed none, once, twice, 3 times, 4 times. Put equal amounts in identical jars with identical amounts of water. Try to shake them the same. For example, 20 shakes of similar vigor. Compare the results. This will help you get a feel.

Remember, hardness of water changes the result.


Andrew

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Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the next visit to your doctor, you should notice your triglyceride levels drop.


Murphy...you funny! I didn't get it until I got to the last sentence.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for all of the feedback.

Tilly, I think you were referring to my quote:

quote:
I can get ALL of my runs to pass or fail, depending on how hard I shake.


What I meant by pass/fail is that within a 30 minute period, I don't get good separation, and sometimes have a middle layer. "Failing" didn't imply failing conversion, it meant failing the soap test.

To further this discusssion, I posted a separate topic where my 3/27 test passed just fine. I washed, washed, and washed....so much that the biodiesel got clear WHILE washing. The water below it was also clear, and there was no middle layer. I could see the bubbles at the water/biodiesel layer and yet, when I do a shake test, I don't get good definition between the water and biodiesel layer.

Suggestions?


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Location: Bay Area, California | Registered: October 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Steve,

I don't get what your question is. Can you help clarify what info you want?

If you think too hard, shakemup will make you crazy. I think soap titration is more suitable for you.


Andrew

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Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello AwesomeNet
quote:
Originally posted by AwesomeNet:
Thanks for all of the feedback.
Tilly, I think you were referring to my quote:...
No, I was refering to all the tests I did with the Shake-um up test that clearly demonstrated:
the "Shake-um up" test is not a valid test for conversion.
It is quite good at detecting soap.


It is really as simple as that.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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