I had someone present a new way to do a water test that I wondered if anyone had heard of.
It comes out of South Africa.
- Add B50 (50% Bio/50% diesel) in a glass vial
- Shake them up
- If there's water in the biodiesel, the combined B50 liquid will no longer clear
Anyone ever heard of it? If so, anyone test it against the other water tests to see how accurate it is?
Graydon, there's a multi-personality troll over in the 3/27 thread that would be happy to test it for you under a half-dozen different user names / logins.
Never heard of that test.
Took you awhile, Tilly.
Yeah Tilly, it sure took you awhile.
I know you have not been to Duke lately because there is now a rule that nobody is allowed to stand around outside with their heads up their butts until after dark.
Who is Tilly?
But very frustrating, ignorant and disrupting to the serious contributors Tilly!
Why don't you just participate sensibly with the knowledge that you do have?
Yeah Tilly, exactly my thoughts.
You need to start participate sensibly with the knowledge you have. Like the Duke did in this thread.
All you need to do is read his post and see how he exactly answered the question asked in the OP and the wealth of information that he provided.
And the useful info was even more massive in his posts to the 3/27 and beyond thread!
A perfect example of this was when he posted the picture of the fellow with his head up his butt!!
Fight! Fight, Blue Devils
Fight for Duke and the Blue and White
March on through
For the touchdown's there for you,
Go get 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Graydon, Ill have a go at confirming this test. Did you get any idea of a pass/ fail threshold from the contributor. I normally dry my bio down to 100 - 150ppm of water so Ill start with that and then try some wetter samples. The cloudiness factor is likely to be temperature sensitive so Ill do the test in my new warm cabinet that maintains a constant temp of 20°C.
For anyone who regularly tests fuels this is a useful piece of equipment and costs about €20.
Pick up an old fridge that doesnt work any more, preferably a small one, I know how you Americans like your enormous fridges. Mount a 60watt incandescent lightbulb in the bottom of the fridge and connect it to a PID temp controller and a SSR with the temperature probe fixed about half way up the inside of the fridge. These last three can be bought on Fleabay for €15 from China and they work perfectly. Of course this only works in a climate where your workshop temperature is normally below 20°C like mine. As an alternative in a hot climate you could connect the same PID controller, reset to cool mode, to a Peltier type cool box.
No. No other data on how he did the test.
Other than just taking B50, adding water and shaking and then looking to see if it's cloudy.
Much like a shake-em up test with B100 looking for soap.
If it's cloudy, there's a good chance it still has soap.
In this case, he said that the standard where he is for water is the same as the US for water in the finished biodiesel (no more than 500 ppm) and that this test will go cloudy if it's above that level.
Can't wait to hear your test results.
The standard may be the same but the test methods are different and will give different results.
The South African test for water is ISO 12937 which uses Karl Fischer Coulometric Titration for the test.
This test detects ALL water present, including dissolved, as well as suspended and free Water.
The US test is ASTM D2709 which uses a centrifuge. This test does not detect disolved water, it only detects suspended and free water.
The South African standard is more stringent than the US standard.
re your post 2nd june, surely we're not adding water to test for water.I thought it was just a simple 50/50 shake up with
Correct. My bad.
Just Bio & diesel.
That's interesting on the South African spec being more stringent.
I completely agree. I've always thought the US Method of testing for water wasn't terribly accurate (centrifuge).
I know the Sandy Brae Water Tester & Karl Fischer are much more accurate.
In talking to folks that sit on the US ASTM Board, they've mentioned that the board has kicked around the thought of converting the water spec over to Karl Fischer a time or two but it's never happened.
Graydon, I havnt forgotten about offering to check out the B50 test but have run into a roadblock. I dont often buy diesel, in fact the last time I put diesel in my car was 2 years ago on the way back from a holiday in Italy.
So I set out with a gerrycan to my local filling station and bought 5 litres of diesel. When I got it home and poured some into a beaker I knew something was wrong. It had a sickly yellow colour. I tested the specific gravity and it read 0.81, too low for diesel. I tested the flash point and it flashed at 65°C, again too low for diesel. My best guess is that what I bought is 75% diesel / 25% kerosene heating oil imported from Northern Ireland which is dyed yellow for tax reasons.
Undeterred I bought another 5 litres from a garage on a busy route near Cork city. Upon examination this fuel, I wont call it diesel, was a dirty grey colour. The s.g. and flash point were roughly right but the water content was 1200ppm. I certainly would not put this stuff anywhere near my engine.
Just to give you some background to this, here in Ireland we are in a deep economic depression, despite the optimistic noises our politicians make. During the last 6 years of "austerity", wages have fallen sharply, taxes have rocketed, businesses have gone to the wall in huge numbers. Diesel fuel, upon which every business depends directly or indirectly, now costs €1.50 a litre ($7.58 per us gallon.) 80% of this price is tax and a major criminal industry has emerged supplying illegal adulterated fuel to an unsuspecting public. Savage cuts in public spending means that there is almost no regulation of fuel quality or anything else for that matter.
I have a friend , a diesel mechanic, who has never been so busy repairing damaged diesel engines. We have reached a crazy situation where the only people who can be sure of the quality of their fuel are hombrewers who make their own fuel.
However on his advice I went to my local VW dealership and bought 5 litres of clean genuine diesel from their filling station. So I will carry out the tests over the next couple of days. Sorry for the delay.
Finally I got round to trying out this test.
I started with a sample of my own current production biodiesel with 100ppm of water ( by carbide manometer). Mixed it with an equal amount of diesel, shook hard and got a clear result.
To a litre of this bio I added 0.5ml of water and mixed thoroughly(600ppm)
Mixed it with an equal amount of diesel and shook hard, got a clear result.
To another litre of the 100ppm bio I added 0.9ml of water and mixed thoroughly (1000ppm)
Mixed it with an equal amount of diesel and got a very slightly hazy result.
Not a very useful result, Im afraid.
This test would seem to depend on the saturation point of dissolved water in biodiesel/diesel and I suspect that this is very temperature dependent. The temperature here today is 23°C. Practically a heat wave by Ireland standards.
Cool. Thanks so much for checking into it.
I appreciate it.
It was worth a shot.
I am the guy down in Cape Town who stumbled accros this result. We retail B100, B50 and B20.
What happened is we received a supply of diesel from supplier A and a supply of biodiesel from supplier B. We blend diesel (500ppm sulphur) and bio to produce or required blends.
In the transparet filter bowl we notice that the B50 and B20 were cloudy. We suspected water in either the diesel or the bio. We took samples from each dtorage tank and sent them away for testing.
Turns out the diesel was in spec for water content but the bio wasnt. The bio had 900ppm of water when the spec says max 500ppm.
And so that is how I came to the conclusion that a blend of diesel and biodiesel, when either one of the fuels is out of spec for water, results in the blend being cloudy.
Of course its not accurate but without test equipment in the field might be able to just give the user a warning.
What you are witnessing is the point at which the fuel becomes saturated with dissolved water (invisible)and the excess water becomes suspended (visible.) The saturation point of biodiesel is higher than that of diesel so when you mix the two you effectively lower the saturation point of the mixture and the suspended water becomes visible. However these saturation points vary widely with temperature which may make the test unreliable .
If you had a carbide manometer at your premises you could test every batch of fuel before mixing. It cost about €30 to assemble one, it is very easy to use and takes about 10 minutes.
For straight veggie oil I've used the old crackle test: just pour a little oil in a hot frying pan. If there is even a trace of dissolved water it will spit and crackle. You might need to keep the temps down a bit to keep from igniting your B50, but otherwise I don't know why it wouldn't work for it too.
The "Hot Pan", "Hot Spoon", or "Crackle" test is only valid for straight vegetable oil. Any petro fuel in the mix will give a false positive for water and mask the water present.
To test fuel blends a Carbide Manometer or a Sandy Brae test is recommended.
The ASTM standard requires centrifugal testing for water in fuel blends.
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