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posted
http://utahbiodieselsupply.com...eseltesting.php#big5

Utah Biodiesel puts out a lot of videos. They seem professional. I thought I should run ASTM tests before I run in my 98 Dodge. Until then, I figured I'd run in my BD in my 83 Benz and try that for a year. Then I thought: ASTM. Would any "pros" out there pay to have your BD tested?

Mike

There are several tests, all the way up to full ASTM. Here is the package I thought of running

The "Big 5" Test Package (16 oz. Collected)| Back To Testing Packages
This test package has the 5 most commonly failed tests by Biodiesel producers. It's a common test run by commercial biodiesel producers, biodiesel distributors, and biodiesel retailers. If Biodiesel is going to fail ASTM, these tests typically are where it will fail. This is a great test to run if you're getting ready to do the full ASTM tests and think you're "almost there". We highly recommend it!
ASTM Test Methods
ASTM D6584 - Total & Free Glycerin
ASTM D93 - Flashpoint
ASTM D2709 - Sediment & Water
ASTM D664 - Acid Number
ASTM D2500 - Cloud Point

PRICE: $408.93
SHIPPING: $17.50


Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

83 MB 300SD (2 tank) - Greasel
98 Dodge 2500 (2 tank) - Golden Fuels
82 Rabbit Truck (2 tank) - my design) - SOLD
Diesel Craft CF process in enclosed shed
BD first batch 9/23/12, still going ..
6-4x10 solar hot water panels and 500 gallon wood-burning water stove
2.8 kW PV grid-tie w/batt b/u commissioned March 2011
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: September 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have 120,000 miles on bio on an 03 PSD, I process to an immediate clear 3/27 and dry wash with oak shavings to less than 10ppm soap, I've never had a single problem.
the problem with spending money for an astm test is you will never have two batches with everything exactly the same unless you use virgin oil from the same source every time.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am pretty new to biodiesel but I agree with fabricator. There are more than enough good backyard tests you can do that I think you would just be wasting $420
 
Registered: September 03, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would agree with fabricator on this one.

The basic homebrew tests are great!
1) Water test oil, dewater if wet
2) Titrate the oil, brew according to titration
3) 3/27 test reacted bio & make sure the reaction went well
4) Soap Test finished fuel & make sure it's low enough in soap
5) Water test finished Biodiesel to see if it's dry enough

We even have a page with examples of how to do each test here:
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/qualitytests.php

For most people, doing these tests on fuel you make yourself can ensure you're making high quality brew for much less money.
The ASTM is mainly used by commercial producers trying to sell the Biodiesel they produce or by commercial biodiesel purchasers who are checking their producers fuel quality. The Big 5 is the most common set of tests these guy's like to use.

I did a post a while back on equivalent home brew tests to the ASTM tests as well to see how they correlate to each other:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...11061471/m/462106922

That said, there are some home brewers out there that are curious to see how close they're getting the ASTM standard & the ASTM test's would definitely let you know.




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree with the above comments. Unless you're trying to sell BD and require ASTM certification then the DIY tests are quite adequate.

http://make-biodiesel.org/Quality-Testing/



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Absorbing it all. Graydon Blair: not your doin', but Utah BD seems to have made a mistake on the limits. At 4:00 they say that it's 41 ppm for NaOH and at 4:05 they say 66 ppm for KOH. Then, to finish, they reverse the numbers on the one screenshot at 4:32. I am guessing they are right on the multiplier? 304 NaOH and 320 KOH?

All of this is meaningless if I am at the 3000+ ppm soap. I am running 33% BD in my older MB 300SD and when it passed the 3/27 I was delighted. I can imagine the IP will be ruined and the injectors will be gummed up with high soap? I only have 200 miles on 10% and 50 miles on 33%. How many miles to do damage at the 3000+ they are discussing in the UTAH BD video?

Also, on the methanol test, do you divide your calculate quantity of methanol needed by the purity? Same as for the KOH/NaOH?

One more thing: is it 7 as a base for KOH or 9? I'd heard both. I used 9 and the wash is milky for days so far, 2 washes in.


Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

83 MB 300SD (2 tank) - Greasel
98 Dodge 2500 (2 tank) - Golden Fuels
82 Rabbit Truck (2 tank) - my design) - SOLD
Diesel Craft CF process in enclosed shed
BD first batch 9/23/12, still going ..
6-4x10 solar hot water panels and 500 gallon wood-burning water stove
2.8 kW PV grid-tie w/batt b/u commissioned March 2011
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: September 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Fabricator: do you have a link for "dry wash with oak shavings" process?


Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

83 MB 300SD (2 tank) - Greasel
98 Dodge 2500 (2 tank) - Golden Fuels
82 Rabbit Truck (2 tank) - my design) - SOLD
Diesel Craft CF process in enclosed shed
BD first batch 9/23/12, still going ..
6-4x10 solar hot water panels and 500 gallon wood-burning water stove
2.8 kW PV grid-tie w/batt b/u commissioned March 2011
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: September 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Several more newbie questions. I've been WVO for 100,000 miles but very limited BD experience.
1) Does centrifuging remove soaps or are they in solution?
2) What does the shake test do when mixing water and BD?


Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

83 MB 300SD (2 tank) - Greasel
98 Dodge 2500 (2 tank) - Golden Fuels
82 Rabbit Truck (2 tank) - my design) - SOLD
Diesel Craft CF process in enclosed shed
BD first batch 9/23/12, still going ..
6-4x10 solar hot water panels and 500 gallon wood-burning water stove
2.8 kW PV grid-tie w/batt b/u commissioned March 2011
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: September 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Do you guys test methanol purity just the once from the supplier you use? Every time?


Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

83 MB 300SD (2 tank) - Greasel
98 Dodge 2500 (2 tank) - Golden Fuels
82 Rabbit Truck (2 tank) - my design) - SOLD
Diesel Craft CF process in enclosed shed
BD first batch 9/23/12, still going ..
6-4x10 solar hot water panels and 500 gallon wood-burning water stove
2.8 kW PV grid-tie w/batt b/u commissioned March 2011
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: September 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Any reason I'm not getting "immediate" e-mails on responses? "Display e-mail" is the one I use. I've also gone to a previous e-mail. Any help appreciate.


Mike Goodman
High Point, NC

83 MB 300SD (2 tank) - Greasel
98 Dodge 2500 (2 tank) - Golden Fuels
82 Rabbit Truck (2 tank) - my design) - SOLD
Diesel Craft CF process in enclosed shed
BD first batch 9/23/12, still going ..
6-4x10 solar hot water panels and 500 gallon wood-burning water stove
2.8 kW PV grid-tie w/batt b/u commissioned March 2011
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: September 30, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Does centrifuging remove soaps


no


quote:
or are they in solution?


yes


quote:
Any reason I'm not getting "immediate" e-mails on responses?


the internet isn't always fast

this is the best link to access the forums

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=nslv



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The dry wash with wood chips is all over this board, I've never tested the purity of my methanol, centrifuging WILL remove soaps, I've done it many times you just need to make sure you have a setup that does not cause the bio to heat up as it runs through the process, if it heats up the soap will not come out of solution.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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A video clip of a dry wash system. And yes I do talk funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfTrK0iNj28
 
Location: Virginia | Registered: March 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SWMSGoodman:
Absorbing it all. Graydon Blair: not your doin', but Utah BD seems to have made a mistake on the limits. At 4:00 they say that it's 41 ppm for NaOH and at 4:05 they say 66 ppm for KOH. Then, to finish, they reverse the numbers on the one screenshot at 4:32. I am guessing they are right on the multiplier? 304 NaOH and 320 KOH?

That'd be due to the idiot that edited the video (me).
I really need to reshoot that thing. The lighting sucked that day too so it made the fuel look green instead of yellow.

But, the first numbers were the correct ones.
41ppm for NaOH reacted bio. 66 for KOH reacted bio.
The multipliers are correct though.

Use the #'s on this page. I know they're accurate.
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/blog/archives/7

quote:
All of this is meaningless if I am at the 3000+ ppm soap. I am running 33% BD in my older MB 300SD and when it passed the 3/27 I was delighted. I can imagine the IP will be ruined and the injectors will be gummed up with high soap?

- I've asked this question to several Biodiesel experts. "What does excess soap do to a diesel engine?" I even asked it to Van Gerpen & Gerhard Knothe (the Gods of all Biodiesel in the US) and the basic answer I keep getting is that the soap just plugs up the fuel filters and that it probably isn't good for the fuel injection system. So, quick answer, it's bad for the fuel filters. Plug a fuel filter and you'll cause cavitation in the injection pumps (starving the pump of fuel) which isn't good for the pump or the injectors (they don't do too well dry firing--especially common rail systems and especially Ford 6.0 liter injectors).

I'm sure the soap deposits can eventually gum up the injection pump & injectors, but I've never gotten the experts to come right out & say exactly what damage it will do. Sodium & Potassium are metals and they can leave an ash behind when you burn them (they don't completely combust), so it can't be good for the system.

quote:
I only have 200 miles on 10% and 50 miles on 33%. How many miles to do damage at the 3000+ they are discussing in the UTAH BD video?

No one has really ever come out with how quick it'll hurt an injection system. I'd say probably several thousand miles to hurt the actual injectors & pump, but at 3,000 PPM, you'll plug a fuel filter REALLY fast & there's a lot more damage that can be done to a fuel injection pump & injectors by starving it of fuel. Your old Merc? Probably won't hurt it much at all for a long time, but I'd still work to get your soap numbers down.

quote:
Also, on the methanol test, do you divide your calculate quantity of methanol needed by the purity?
You mean for the 3/27 test? Or just for figuring out the amount of methanol in general? If just the amount of methanol needed for a reaction, as long as you're using fairly pure methanol, use 20 to 22% and you'll be good.

quote:
Same as for the KOH/NaOH?

Ok, I think I got ya. No. Just go with 20 to 22% & you'll be fine.

quote:
One more thing: is it 7 as a base for KOH or 9? I'd heard both. I used 9 and the wash is milky for days so far, 2 washes in.

Go with 7 but divide for purity.
ie. if you're using 93% pure KOH, then it'd be 7/.93 = 7.6 for the base.

quote:
1) Does centrifuging remove soaps or are they in solution?

- It's difficult to centrifuge Biodiesel to remove all the soap. It looks like fabricator is having success doing it though. If you try it, just be sure to test before & after to make sure it's working.
- Like he said, if the fuel stays hot, the soaps are going to be much more prone to staying in suspension & going right through the centrifuge.

quote:
2) What does the shake test do when mixing water and BD?

- If there's a lot of soap present, the water will settle out milky. If the water stays milky, it's an indication that you still have too much soap in your fuel and that you need to keep washing it.
- I like this test as my "first gut check test". Once the water goes clear, then I move to actual soap testing titration. If you do it before, you're just wasting chemicals because it's going to come out so high.

quote:
Do you guys test methanol purity just the once from the supplier you use? Every time?

- I personally only test new methanol if I suspect there's a problem. The methanol test is more often used when people are using reclaimed methanol from their process (methanol recovery from the glycerin or the Biodiesel; because it tends to have a lot of water right after it's been recovered).

Information on dry washing (especially with wood chips)
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...s/a/frm/f/5521001332

Works great!




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Soaps, residual glycerol, and HMPEs will all drop out of solution in the vehicle tank as the residual methanol evaporates and the ambient temperature cools below 45°F. This 'sludge' will nicely clog the intake screen in the tank, and then yer pretty much hooped until you drain and flush the tank. Cold settling and cold filtering the fuel at ambient outdoor temperature before it goes into the vehicle tank can help to avoid cold weather fuel problems.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SWMSGoodman:
All of this is meaningless if I am at the 3000+ ppm soap. I am running 33% BD in my older MB 300SD and when it passed the 3/27 I was delighted. I can imagine the IP will be ruined and the injectors will be gummed up with high soap? I only have 200 miles on 10% and 50 miles on 33%. How many miles to do damage at the 3000+ they are discussing in the UTAH BD video?
I have never checked soap ppm. My "washing" consists of evaporating off the methanol and allowing the biodiesel to settle for several months. I have the same Mercedes and have not had any problems with 100,000 miles B100 use. I think you are good for a few years yet.
quote:
One more thing: is it 7 as a base for KOH or 9? I'd heard both.
It is 7 if the KOH is 100% purity. Most KOH is 90% purity so you need to adjust your KOH to compensate for this lack of purity. That works out to 7.7g KOH. I bump it up to 8 for good luck.
quote:
This 'sludge' will nicely clog the intake screen in the tank, and then yer pretty much hooped until you drain and flush the tank.
I am not sure what hooped means, but the old timers method of cleaning the pick-up screen in the tank is to reverse the delivery and return lines which removes the screen from the pick-up. A 5 minute job if you are slow and thoughtful with your work.
 
Location: Apeldoorn | Registered: August 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
the old timers method of cleaning the pick-up screen in the tank is to reverse the delivery and return lines

Easier on some vehicles than on others. It's best to just keep the stuff out of the tank by cold filtering when filling.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Easier on some vehicles than on others.
Some vehicles do not have a screen on the fuel tank intake so then the warning about the fuel tank intake screen clogging would be irrelevant. This thread is about a Mercedes 300SD which does have a screen on the fuel intake which is what I was talking about.
quote:
It's best to just keep the stuff out of the tank by cold filtering when filling.
Closing the gate after the horse has bolted does not solve the immediate problem. This 5 minute roadside fix takes care of the problem that you said requires draining and flushing the tank.
 
Location: Apeldoorn | Registered: August 01, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by fuelfarmer:
A video clip of a dry wash system. And yes I do talk funny.

FF
Thanks for another great video and tip, I copied your drywash system and used your bottom screen design. The screen on top looks like a great idea also to diffuse incoming fuel to prevent tunneling. My top two drums always have dry unused chips on top. This piece of equipment has saved countless dollars and problems keeping my Amberlite tower and 1 micron final polisher clean and free of soap !!! It Costs about a Grand to Freshen up the Amberlite tower and $60 to replace the filters in the polisher. I haven't had to do either since woodchip filtering thousands of Gallons ago Big Grin
Thanks again to you and Legal Eagle.
BTW you sound like an American to me,,,
Stuck in a Rut is still My favorite !!
regards and thanks
Tom



1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SWMSGoodman:
Would any "pros" out there pay to have your BD tested?

As many have mentioned, the home brew tests are probably plenty good enough unless you plan on selling fuel. If you planned on selling fuel, there is a way you can get a full ASTM done for free. However it's much easier to just pay someone...

If I lived where you do, I'd take a quart of bio for the short drive over to Piedmont Biofuels and speak to them about quality testing. Have a lab that can do the 5 major tests in house, fairly cheap. Plus they will put you back on track if you do have anything out of spec. Nice "group" of people and they have a sweet place for members to hang out there too. I'd be hanging out there if it wasn't 500 miles away.

-Ken


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Location: Southeastern Ohio | Registered: January 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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