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27/3 how soon?

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October 05, 2014, 02:29 PM
Dgs
27/3 how soon?
Tilly, Although IMB's graph is excellent,in context to what we are saying we cannot take the graph " literally" as we do not know the chemical additions.
October 05, 2014, 02:37 PM
Tilly
Hi Dgs,
quote:
Originally posted by Dgs:
Tilly, Although IMB's graph is excellent,in context to what we are saying we cannot take the graph " literally" as we do not know the chemical additions.
It is true that omitting the amount of chemicals used in the reaction is one of several problems with the graph.
However, no matter what the titration of WVO being reacted or the amount of chemicals used, the graph clearly shows that when using the same amount of chemicals, a 2 stage method achieves higher conversion than a single stage method.

Than has been "common knowledge" for years.








October 05, 2014, 04:41 PM
Dgs
Looks to me as if the blue curve would have made it if if were left long enough.
October 05, 2014, 05:54 PM
john galt
quote:
Originally posted by Dgs:
Looks to me as if the blue curve would have made it if if were left long enough.

Do you think the grey curve would have gone to 100%?
Perhaps the blue curve is doing the same?



October 06, 2014, 12:29 AM
Tilly
You have to be careful what you deduce from this graph.

For instance, if you had looked at the grey "accelerated" curve at about the 1 hour and 10 minute mark, you would have said that it was clear that this method would achieve 100% at about the 1 hour and 20 minute mark.
That did not happen.

If you then look at the red two stage curve on the graph, while the first stage initially started off slower than the blue single stage method, by the time the red second stage went in, apparently at the 80% line, the first stage of the red two stage method was actually climbing steeper than the blue single stage method and had nearly caught up to it.
If you were to extrapolate the red first stage up, you would say that it would have soon passed the blue single stage method which had "stalled at around the 90% mark" and gone on to completion.
In that case there would be no need for the red second stage.

Of course there was no information provided about the quality of the oil reacted, the amount of chemicals used or how the reactions were performed.
So the graph does not really tell you very much other than a two stage method gives higher conversion than a single stage method if the same amount of chemicals are used and that falls in the category of "common knowledge".

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tilly,






October 09, 2014, 09:47 PM
fuelfarmer
Jon, to answer the question about cost of SM I needed to get an updated price. $7.69 per gallon for 30%. Naoh is around 99 cents per pound.

I use 6.25 gallons to react 240 gallons of oil most of the time. The oil would titrate 1 to 1.5 if you wanted to do some math. Remember the 5 to 8% yield increase

I have been getting SM in drums but I might have to get it in a tote at some piont.
October 09, 2014, 10:12 PM
Tilly
Hi Fuelfarmer,
I would not be too sure about the 5 to 8% yield increase if your WVO titrates 1 to 1.5.
At that titration your yield should be around the 98% using NaOH/ KOH
quote:
Originally posted by fuelfarmer:
Remember the 5 to 8% yield increase







October 10, 2014, 09:46 AM
fuelfarmer
quote:
Originally posted by Tilly:
Hi Fuelfarmer,
I would not be too sure about the 5 to 8% yield increase if your WVO titrates 1 to 1.5.
At that titration your yield should be around the 98% using NaOH/ KOH
quote:
Originally posted by fuelfarmer:
Remember the 5 to 8% yield increase


I am OK with a 1 or 2% yield increase.

I did some farmer math and when you add up savings from methanol replaced, and yield increase the numbers work.
October 10, 2014, 03:16 PM
Jon Heron
Thanks FF, I sent them a request for a quote on a drum of it up here to Canada an Wednesday and they still have not replied...
I am not holding my breath at this point...
Cheers,
Jon


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