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pass and fail 3/27 test
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First time poster so if I screw this up I'm sorry
I love the 3/27 test and have been using it for quite a few batches now. Today, I ended up making three 1 liter test batches. I always make a test batch before I process the whole 40 gallon batch, kind of a sanity check. The oil in the heat barrel is about 140F and contains oil from three different sources. Before I take the sample liter I stir it up a bit. The oil titrated at .9ml and I use 5 + titrant. I don't have I mix for 20 min and take a 100ml sample out of the jar near the end of mixing while the drill is still running. I let this settle for a couple of hours and then do the 3/27 test. In the pic below that is the tube on the far right. It dropped a little over 13ml of glyc and failed miserably. Probably a 1.5ml blob of oil in the 3/27 The next batch I used 6 + titrant, it dropped out more glyc 13.5+ It also failed but with a smaller, maybe 2 BB's worth. The third I use 7 + titrant and it passes. It dropped out less glyc but, 3/27 is clear??? Go figure.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaun,

Image327test_copy.jpg (27 Kb, 43 downloads)
 
Location: Tucson, Az. | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Is there a particular part of this you want help with?

If so, you may want to tell us more about your process:
Type of mixing?
Duration of mixing?
Type of processor?
Start temp.?
End temp.?
KOH or NaOH?
% purity?
% methanol used as a percent of oil?
other details you think may be useful?


Andrew

http://biodieselcommunity.org
03 Dodge 2500 B100 homebrew
79 Rabbit B100 homebrew
 
Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, yea I guess my question might be, how can it drop less glyc, yet be considered a more complete reaction as proven by the 3/27 test?
Maybe another question would be, if we're talking about using 5+titrant, (I think that's the excepted recipe) how screwed up would you have to be to miss titrating by 2ml? (7+titrant)
Or for that matter, aren't there still websites that use 3.5+titrant? So, I missed titrating by 3.5ml (this makes me chuckle when you think of how namy times you've heard or read, titrate carefully, measure accurately, be careful.)
Type of mixing:
Drill set to about half speed, using a kitchen wire whisk. 1qt ball jar with 1ltr of oil
Duration:
20min
Type of processor:
I'm not processing the full batch yet, this is just the 1ltr test batches. But, when I do, the processor is one of those plastic cone bottom container with a HF 1" pump.
Start temp:
140F in the heating barrel but, by the time I take it out of there, take it into the garage, mix up the methoxide and start mixing, it cools a few degrees. I live in Arizona, things don't cool down very quickly in the summer time around here.
Ending temp:
See above. I don't add heat while it processes.
KOH or NaOH:
NaOH
Meth
225ml
Titrant:
New concentrate batch, made 8/13
 
Location: Tucson, Az. | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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jsaj944,
Do you 'blank' the titration before adding the oil sample ?
Just checking.
regards
dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jasa,

quote:
how can it drop less glyc, yet be considered a more complete reaction as proven by the 3/27 test?


Not really sure, but if you are comparing batches, I think 3/27 is (provided temp. is constant) a more reliable test for conversion.

quote:
Type of mixing:
Drill set to about half speed, using a kitchen wire whisk. 1qt ball jar with 1ltr of oil
Duration: 20min


How do you fit 1 liter of oil plus 225 ml. methoxide into a 1 quart jar?

My guess is that you may be loosing methanol due to open mixing. Have tried the Dr. Pepper method where the test reactor is sealed?


Andrew

http://biodieselcommunity.org
03 Dodge 2500 B100 homebrew
79 Rabbit B100 homebrew
 
Location: Northern California | Registered: February 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oops, my mistake, they're 2qt jars.

I have thought about the loss of meth but, have not tried the DrPepper method. I do use a lid that has a hole in the top to allow the whisk to stick up through and the drill to be attached. It's not sealed for sure; all it really does is keep the oil from splashing out.

This is probably just a theoretical question but, how much meth evaporates? Some for sure but, if the acceptable amount of meth used is between 20% and 25%, if I start with a 22.5% (225ml) solution how much evaps? More than 25ml? Dude! That stuffs expensive! That would almost be a 3/27 test worth of meth!?!

I guess I'll try the DrP method with a 20% and see what happens. Come to think of it, a couple of years ago, I was using a 20% solution and I don’t remember when I bumped it up to 22.5% that I got any more glyc. I’ve always just expected to see at least 12ml at the bottom of a 100ml cylinder.

Most of my test batches are just to make sure I don’t make glop. I can’t imagine having to get rid of 40 gallons of bad stuff. What a biodieseler’s nightmare.
 
Location: Tucson, Az. | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Sorry dva I forgot to answer your question.

No, well, sometimes. I've found that when I blank, it only takes one drop to blank and that since my wvo usually only titrates to .4-.6 that the added drop makes me use just the tiniest bit more. (it makes my other biodiseler friends happy to see me have to use more since my wvo already titrates so low.
 
Location: Tucson, Az. | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello jasaj944

If you are running a mixer through a tiny hole in the top, your methanol loss would be minimal.
20 minutes mixing time at 140 deg F may not be enough time.

Most of the increase in glycerine when you went from 20% to 22.5% is probably extra methanol.

The 5g NaOH+ titration is to "Just scrape in" to ASTM conversion. Some people need to use more.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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After reading the viscosity test thread, I seem to remember that someone said that you could calibrate by making a batch with 7+titrant, as this would drive it to an ultra-complete reaction. I guess that makes me wonder why the recipe hasn’t evolved to 7+ but that’s just over kill and the possibilities of making glop are better so, why not just screw up 1ltr instead of a larger batch.

Since my oil titrates very low I figure that using 6+ titrant wouldn’t be over kill or produce gobs of soap. So far, so good.

20 min of mixing isn’t enough? Okay, I can mix it longer. In my processor I typically mix 1.5 – 2 hours but, I thought that 20 mins of mixing the 1ltr would be enough.
 
Location: Tucson, Az. | Registered: May 30, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I mix 1L batches for 10-15 min. and they come out fine. My oil titrates at 1.0-1.9 or so.


2000 F-250 7.3 with 160,000 on WVO, probably 10,000 of that in Biodiesel, total milage of 333.333 + !!
 
Location: Kenya, New Orleans, Massachusetts | Registered: July 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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