BP, the testing may only be necessary if you are trying to get a rebate from the government. I will wait to see what the ATO has come up with.

However, if the government wants to get any income from the homemade biodiesel crowd, perhaps it could have a think about making a "homemade biodiesel license".

Instead of having to comply with all the 5 year requirment of excess paperwork and sending in dibs and dabs of excise, perhaps the government could look at the issue realisticly and just take a one time payment for a homemade biodiesel license.

The license could be for a nominal amount (why pay heaps for a license when you could be purchasing diesel with it) and it would allow a person to make homemade biodiesel for personal use.

That way the government can save some face in this issue and make a bit of money - and the homebrewers can get on with saving the world and not have to worry about big brother lurking in the shadows.

Yes, I recall once upon a time obtaining a shooting license which was good forever

Except of course they then decided forever really meant 4 years.
Then I had to get a shooting license that was good for 5 years and I had to regester my gun.
Now because I could not sensibly fulfil the requirements to renew this license I have had to relinquish my license and give my gun to a licensed friend.
Of course it cost me $30 for the paperwork to give MY gun to a registered shooter.
I think everyone should line up to get a "Free" biodiesel license.

Rev Tilly KE

A friend (and retired cop) once pointed out that anything that requires a license is illegal. The license gives permission to do the thing that would otherwise get you arrested.
I carry a copy of the letter from my state tax board clearly stating that homebrewed fuel is tax exempt for personal use. It isn't a license, but it's frighteningly close to one.

Yeah, this homemade biodiesel issue has a lot of similarities to the Australian gun control issue - lots of lies, get a license, get known by the authorities. More central control by corrupt authorities.

For those of you who are outside the loop on the Australian gun control issue I have written 5 articles about it. Here is a link to 3 of them about the psy-op known as the Port Arthur Massacre.

JFPFO Articles

I will see if they can update those articles and publish the more recent fourth article in the series. It is a real ripper with new information the government recently tried to suppress.

The background on the lies from Canberra and the media is here:

Gun Runner

I can well understand why many in the Australian homemade biodiesel movement would not want to have a thing to do with the government. They have already moved the goal posts several times during their "debates". Why stick your neck out unnecessarily?

As a lawyer who has run hundreds of cases involving the firearms laws, I can confirm that my clients are often stunned to find out how the system really works.

I had this fellow at Penrith Local Court sitting outside the court after a conviction of "not store firearm safe". He now had a conviction, lost his 4 rifles and was banned from having a firearm license for 10 years. He kept saying "I'm so stupid, I'm so stupid, what am I going to tell my mates?". I replied that anyone could make a silly mistake the way the system was set up. He said no that wasn't it.

He said all his mates had told him NOT to get in the system. However, he told them he didn't want to be a criminal and he wanted to keep his guns. But look what happened - now he was a criminal and he had lost all his guns BECAUSE HE GOT IN THE SYSTEM!

I guess there is a moral there for the Australian homemade biodiesel people to consider.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Terry Syd,

quote:

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Originally posted by Thebushpig:
When Mr Ron Hutson tells me that testing is no longer required I will take him seriously, and I intend to contact him with that very question.

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Nah F I I'm not gonna even bother...

In the interest of keeping dialogue open with the ATO, I am forwarding Ron Hutson's recent email to me. Unfortunately, the links he sent to me for the forms for a license and such don't work. I will work on getting the links. Message follows -

Hi Terry,

Sorry to hear that public perception is that grim. In the main, the simplification and streamlining of the administration I referred to for homeproducers relates to ongoing practices, checks and documentation requirements.

A commercial manufacturer of any excisable product is comprehensively screened during the registration process to ensure that they are a fit and proper person to hold a license, to determine if production methodologies and layout meets safety and orher specifications and to determine if product security meets a required standard. I won't bother explaining the necessity underlying such detailed checking, but most of it relates to the commercial nature of the activity.

A homeproducer for this purpose of this discussion is one that is manufacturing under 50,000 litres per annum for own use. They must obtain a licence to manufacture by filling out the registration and manufacturers licence forms. Neither of these forms could be described as being particularly onerous.

Whilst the form for the manufacturers license may appear dauntingly detailed, advice given to homeproducers is to emphasise that ther is no requirement to submit the manufacturiing site scale plans. There is a need to describe the manufacturing process with some details of where it is to be undertaken for obvious reasons - ie the ATO would not grant a licence if someone advised they were intending production in a suburban kitchen.... Non-commercial producers will not be required to produce a range of other documentation which applies to commercial production.

Upon the granting of a licence, homeproducers are granted a permission which requires that they lodge a single annual statement (return form). Nearly all excisable goods manufacturers are required to lodge weekly returns - the annual lodgement is a concession offered only to bidiesel homeproducers in a desire to be the least intrusive as possible whilst still meeting the legislative requirements.

That form basically only requires the insertion of a quantity produced and a tariff code (along with identity details) - very basic information. To preclude the need for any payment of excise, the claim form for the rebate is processed simultaneously. Again, there is even less information required on that form (basically only the quantity).

I hate to disagree, but there really isn't anything complicated in any of those processes as far as I am aware.

As far as record-keeping is concerned, the following is an extract from the booklet "Meeting your biodiesel obligations" (nat 9885-04.2004)

What are my record keeping obligations?

You must keep detailed records of the biodiesel entered for home consumption for a period of five (5) years so you can provide evidence to substantiate your returns if you are audited. You may be penalised if you can’t demonstrate that an entry is correct.

Your records should contain information about:

> the biodiesel used in the manufacture of any blended product

> the process of manufacture

> the quantity of the biodiesel manufactured

> loss or wastage of the biodiesel, or of other goods used in the manufacture of the biodiesel, during or after manufacture

> the storage of the biodiesel, and

> the sale or disposal of the biodiesel.

Your records need to be in English, or easily translated into English, and should include records of the storage and disposal of the biodiesel, the calculation of duty, and your excise returns.

It must be kept in mind that these instructions are written for all biodiesel manufacturers - from large commercial down to homeproducers. The level of detail that the ATO would expect to be maintained would depend principally on the volume produced and the purpose to which it is used.

As a minimum, homeproducers would be expected to record what was produced, when it occurred, the details of the feedstock and be able to account for where the fuel produced was used. If the fuel was used as part of a commercial operation (ie running farm machinery), naturally the client would need to retain invoice records for inputs to the manufacturing process for use as a tax deduction against their (primary production) income.

The exact nature of what records needs to be retained will vary in accordance to the circumstance of each instance, however common sense has to have a great bearing. A claim that someone produced 2,000 litres for in powering their 4WD has little need for additional information, however someone that produced 42,000 litres for that same purpose may have some difficulty with credibility. I would expect that the majority of persons undertaking biodiesel production would already be recording much of this information already if only to work out the cost of making (?) volume of biodiesel from (?) amount of feedstock by using ($?) of other products in the process...

Terry, I am not looking to be argumentative but I can't see what can be decribed as 'onerous' in any of that. However, if you would be so kind as to run it past some colleagues and indicate where you think things can be simplified even further, I am glad to take the feedback on board and to escalate any issues.

cheers

Ron Hutson

OK, here is a link to the ATO webpage that will give you the form for an Application for a License to Manufacture Petroleum.

This is one of the applications that would need to be filled out.

On the same webpage is a link to an Application for Excise Registration. That is another application that a homemade biodiesel producer would have to fill out.

There doesn't appear that there would be an assurance of a grant of the applicatons - but at least the ATO would know who you are, where you live and that you are interested in making biodiesel!!!

ATO website

Don't you just luv the ATO links provided on where to get information........ from the (petroleum) "industry group".

Anyone still doubt big oil is calling the shots? or that 'our' government is in bed with them?

Like a cancer our interest is in growth; in growth alone can our corporate (virus) requirement for ever increasing profits be realised....

Pig casting around for a big FO soap box

Like Tilly I am so disgusted with the whole excise situation in Australia I ve moved .As expected the responce from that buerocrat sums up the perversion that pervaids our administators and their Clones.Unless these idiots and their equally pathetic boses start looking at the real issues and sign the Kyoto Agreement and seriouly consider a carbon credit or reduced emmisions rebate in respect to renewable fuels and clean energy,then I feel I speak for the majority of people in this grass roots fuel industry in telling the ATO and their Superiors to go to hell.

Hey Fato , Good one . Environment 0% Money grabbing 1000%. This seams to be the trend with this current government . They need to create some environmental respect and understanding. However this is an impossible mission for them , so lets just all get angry and object to what is on the table ! HO HO HO....
About the rest of this enduring scenario....
If we as producers just get angry and go further underground on the whole legislative and licencing and obviously information grabbing and controlling issue. Well , perhaps others will just step in and take the prize from under our feet. We are the people with the skills and the voice , and we also have the experience that the Gov wants to get from us for a small fee , excise , forms , revenue etc etc.
They are fairly transparent.
So,
What does anyone want to do about it?
Stay small and hide ( very good option to me , as this involves the least energy on every level and does the least for the environment and everything else. ) However this is our only futureproofing. I guess the people who make illegal drugs feel the same way !
However perhaps we need to register as home makers , lift our game plan , get our shit together and create a good protocol for the future of Australias Fuel Industry ??
Its your call.

Ron Hutson is now starting to get some responses from the public on this homemade biodiesel issue. I have received a couple of messages sent to him with my email address CCd.

I notice that this thread has also started to get some responses. The last two postings were by people who obviously have registered a new "nom de plume" just to voice their views in confidence. If that is what it takes for people to feel safe enough to voice their views, then let's have more of it.

Up until now the ATO has been met with a wall of silence that hasn't told them anything. Now they are starting to get feedback.

I will cut and paste the responses on this thread to Ron Hutson, so feel free to contribute.

Here's my message back to Ron Hutson -

Ron,

Thanks for your reply on the administration of home produced biodiesel. Unfortunately, the ATO has been saddled with administering something they shouldn’t even have to deal with. To further inflame the issue, this job has come with a lot of ugly baggage relating to the sleazy politics of alternative fuels.

First off, homeproducers are primarily home producers (get it, home producers). They often work in their kitchens. If I get a brainstorm and want to shake up a litre of biodiesel in my kitchen, I want to be able to do that without some clueless bureaucrat throwing a tizzy and revoking my license. Whether I make beer, spaghetti, or biodiesel on any given day is up to me. It is my kitchen, it is not your kitchen or Helen Coonan’s kitchen. You and the rest of the gang at ATO can do what you want in your kitchens – I don’t care. Please grant me the same courtesy.

Most of the home produced biodiesel I have made was in a shed. Some of it was made on the back porch. Other times I went over to a mate’s house and we did it there. I have given demonstrations in many locations, even in TV studios. What happens when I fill out the application and I put down the location of manufacture as “wherever I feel like it”? Do I get a knock-back? Am I therefore forbidden to produce homemade biodiesel?

To get a rebate, I need to have my fuel tested at $2,500 for the test. Not a chance.

I enjoyed that sentence that started, “Upon the granting of a licence, homeproducers are granted a permission” – thanks. Like I really needed that for the last 5 years.

5 years of records? Audited? Penalised? And this is not onerous? The records in my case could be very cryptic. For the process of manufacture I could put down – “shaken, not stirred”. That means something for homeproducers of biodiesel, but I doubt it makes much sense to ATO. Storage of biodiesel – “no”. Sale or disposal of biodiesel – “used”. And the ATO wants me to write this down every time I make biodiesel and to keep these records for 5 years.

Ron, you walked right into a hornets nest. The government can give the oil shale industry a 5 year moratorium on excise, they can purchase the patent rights for a Fischer-Tropp process for the oil companies in Western Australia, but they have to impede my production of alternative fuel? The government can piss away my tax dollars on office space, plush carpets, leased cars, office coffee machines and glossy brochures for worthless organizations like the Green House office that has never reduced a single bit of green house gas, or pissed away my tax dollars on Sustainable or Alternative energy offices that have never made a drop of alternative energy – but hey, they need my 76.2 cents excise from the last two litres of biodiesel that I made. Here’s a thought – close down those black holes of taxpayers money and I won’t have to subsidise them anymore and I can get on to doing what they are supposed to be doing – and it won’t cost the government a cent!

The recent government funds allocated to biodiesel production went primarily to big oil enterprises, not to make alternative fuel, but will be used to make lubricant for low-sulfur diesel. They will probably import palm oil for the process and screw the Aussie farmer while they are at it. There could be thousands of unpaid volunteers out there cooking up waste cooking oil and actually making alternative energy – but no, the government doesn’t want that to happen. Heck, the Minister even tried to keep legitimate alternative energy groups out of the loop on important issues while doing deals with the petroleum industry.

Ron, I realize I am on a rant and a lot of this is not within your brief, but the ATO should not allow itself to be used as a club to knock around legitimate solutions to our problems. If those useless eaters in Parliament can’t do the right thing, then at least the bureaucrats entrusted to administer this nonsense can do the right thing.

What is the need for 5 years of record keeping for homeproducers? How about one year for the homeproducer? How about instead of meticulous records, having instead a monthly estimate of biodiesel production? How about instead of a commercial license, the homeproducer gets a permit to make and use homeproduced biodiesel that does not specify a place of manufacture or process or quality? How about the Excise tax paid being used as a tax deduction on our yearly tax returns as our contribution to alternative energy, greenhouse gases abatement and to the elimination of pollutants in the environment?

Regards
Terry

Terry, Ron is merely administering the "legislative requirements"; or so he will bleet back to you.

Being a career man in the ATO he will not step out of government line to lobby his superiors for real change. He is a patsy through no fault of his own, he needs to get a good wage to maintain his lifestyle and even improve it as we all do. A departmental man u may depend; or he wouldn't have been given the job......

Not all of us can provide for our families on the outer reefs of life; being in effect freelance workers like ourselves. Outer reefs now might mean straying closeer to the offender side of things for those of us who refuse to give up our independence to make fuel or gather natural foods etc.

It has occurred to me that bikies my now be the most honest folk around! What you see is what you get, no bones about it. Ahhh the old chinese curse....

beaten pig

I rarely ran into a bikie who was a crim, but I have run into a heap that were outlaws.

This forum does give us a real look at the politics and the drones "that are given the responsibility to enforce" the hypocritical laws these elected representatives of the people invent for the vested interests of the greedy magnates they support.
Well said Terry ,you comments to that person were relevant and well formed,in essence until this governement or any can get honest about the environment ,fossil fuel imports ,exploration,and a raft of other glaring inconsistancies (and collusions) in their current energy ,environmental and taxation policies,they do not deserve the support of individuals whom take the initiative to instigate options for the good of ALL the nation and the planet.
Why is the standard for the rebate based around an imported feedstock?(palmOil)
Why is the excise for a renewable ,low Emmision fuel the same level as an mined ,usally imported dirty limited resourse ?
Why do not the same rules as apply to Home Brewed Beer and wine and Spirits not apply to a home brewed fuel made from a waste product destined for a land fill ?
Why is a fossil fuel in gas form excempt from government tax and excise and produces more harmful emmisions than a plant based product coined as Bio Deisel?
What tax credits are due on the recycled tax paid product of the feed stock,IE the GST,and tax on the profit of the now expired vegetable cooking oil;
As was exposed in the submissions on the standard that were called the plebs looked at non of the real issues surrounding sustainable energy issues,I dont need to get political I just want to do the right thing and not contribute to the demise of the air and our natural environment,that is so obvious with the current excessive abuse of fossil fuels.For me there is a huge moral debate at stake and I will not be compromised by irresponsible government who do not sign an aggreement designed to have some effect on preserving the natural environment that is taken for granted (KYOTO SIR)
Sign it Howard and Ill pay your EXCISE .
When I get back.

quote:

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Originally posted by fato:
This forum does give us a real look at the politics and the drones "that are given the responsibility to enforce" the hypocritical laws these elected representatives of the people invent for the vested interests of the greedy magnates they support.

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Fato

Unfortuneately its worse than that.

The bulk of legislation is dreamed up and drafted by departments who then give it to the minister with a memorundum of "Why we need it".

The minister then summons his trumpeters and announces it in parliament ie he/she "tables" the "bill" which means he places the draft legislation on the parlimentary table.

The amount of legislation (un-correlated) by different departments is such that our elected polititions are physically unable to read it all.

They depend on senate committees and memorundums of explanation, again from the department concerned, about the real effect of the legislation....

The blinkered leading the blind?

If only it were so... there is a real issue of those who work for governemnt departments and then go on to large salaries with corporations involved in the industry their former department oversaw....

I paid 117.9 for dino to-day

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Thebushpig,

quote:

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Originally posted by Thebushpig:
SNIP

_I paid 117.9 for dino to-day_

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I collected 25 litres of WVO today. Poured it into my filter bags tonight, tomorrow will have >25 litres of clean canola for my car.

No excise on non-biodiesel, non-petroleum fuels - YET

Terry
have you recieved a response from your Mr Hutsons replying to the latest letter you posted.I would be interested in his responce to some of the issues you raised on behalf of this community.

Ron Hutson has a brief to take the information back to ATO. In his last response to me he said -

"I hear you and your right I stirred up a hornet's nest. Glad to see spirited debate coming from it. Many thanks for your assistance in this."

Ron received emails from a few people. I was CCd some of them and they were similar to my response. If there were any that thought the government's position was legitimate, I never saw them.

A couple of emails came to me and mentioned a few points. One point that was made was writing the records was FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, which is true. The five years is the period you have to keep the records (and God forbid you misplace a single sheet of this Diary of the Absurd).

The point about getting a tax deduction for the excise payments was also mentioned as a good way to get people in the system. Right now there is no incentive to be part of the system (quite the contrary).

If someone could get an offset of the excise against their tax bill, then it would stimulate both the production of alternative energy and to get in the system. Even if the excise could only be taken off the income, that would be something to consider.

Hopefully, the people at ATO will realise that the present system is not going to work at all. Since the politicians have saddled them with this nonsense, they are bound to administer it. The extent they administer it will be the telling point. At this stage the best we can hope for is the ATO to turn a blind eye to homemade biodiesel and to get on with other issues.

If I hear anything more from the ATO on this issue, I will post it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry Syd:
The point about getting a tax deduction for the excise payments was also mentioned as a good way to get people in the system

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Why? How are you "ahead"? All that would happen is to gain the dubious honour of more paperwork for no real gain.

What about the larger issue of the creeping necrosis of continued legislative change (move the goalposts) to something more onerous each year? So they achieve something that nobody would be part of, as with gun laws, if they knew that that was the planned result?

As Billy Connelly says, 'WELL FUWOOK THAART'...