Appleseed Reactor Safety Concerns

So far, I know of six Seven Ten individual reports of explosive events in Appleseed Reactors on this forum due to turning the heater on while it is uncovered.
I feel this obvious on-going safety problem needs addressed as a matter of urgency.

At the bottom of this post I have included two reports of Explosive events in Appleseed Reactors. The second explosion occurred three days after the Reactor had been emptied and last used. One has to be aware that there is ALMOST ALWAYS an explosive methanol/air atmosphere in the Appleseed Reactor.

Here is a list of some of the safety concerns I can see with the Appleseed Reactor:

1. Advising people “The tank can be an ancient lime-crusted one scavenged from a dump”
2. No pressure Relief Valve on the reactor in the event of accidental pressurisation
3. Having a valve on the vent pipe so the reactor can be pressurised.
4. Instructing people to close the vent valve during the reaction. This will allow the reactor to pressurise if the heater is turned on during the reaction
5. No explosion “Blow outs” in the event of an explosion. Pressure Relief valves as used in water heaters are not suitable safety devices for chemical explosions
6. Use of an inappropriate electric heater inside the reactor. The heater used is one designed to be covered at all times. If the heater is turned on while it is not covered, it will get hot enough to ignite the methanol/air atmosphere that is almost always present in an empty Appleseed Reactor.
7. Lack of a safety cut out that will prevent the Heater from being turned on when it is not covered.
8. The use of inappropriate Plastic hoses to carry hot caustic liquids and gasses.
9. Use of an electric motor for mixing that is not explosion proof.

This Thread Clearly demonstrates the danger of using plastic hose.

Here are two reports of Explosive events that have occurred in Appleseed Reactors

Explosive Event #1
“I just finished emptying a batch of biodiesel out of my appleseed and was loading it again with WVO for the next batch. I decided to start heating the oil while it was filling.
I didn't have the oil level above the element before I turned it on. A few seconds later I noticed lots of smoke coming out of the vent. Before I figured out what was happening the element burned out and the vapors inside ignited.
It made a loud wooshing noise about like what you would think an 80 liter propane torch sounds like. It shot a flame about three feet long out of the vent with enough pressure to knock the cover off my near-by drying tank.
I'm not sure how long the burn time was but it seemed like about 10 seconds. It was probably like 1-2 seconds but time slows down when your scared $hi+le$$.

Explosive Event #2
”Last night i nearly blew myself up....thought i had better ad this as a warning....
AFter spending months of processor building, im still a novice and made a slight mistake last night. Whilst i had one lot in the wash tank, i thought i would put in the remaining 22 litres of oil i had into my processor.
Now i worked out that i need a minimum of 50 litres in order to cover the heater element....but having completely forgot this small detail - i proceeded to heat the oil to de-water it - BIG MISTAKE!
1 Minute later i heard a slight hiss...and then BANG! I got covered in oil!!!
My up-turned cylinder had no-longer the dish at the top....its now a dome! And my condensing pipe got blown clean off and landed in the filter box splattering oil everywhere.”

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tilly,

Hi Tilly,

I hear that !

I am done with the wires on the processor.

There is more than one way to shake the Dr. Pepper bottle !

If you put the Dr. Pepper bottle on the table and roll it the liquid won't move much.

Blades on the inside of the bottle will make the liquid splash all around when you roll the bottle.

We are building a processor with a propane tank with a shaft through it from top to bottom. It was cut in half to install the blades.

The shaft will be mounted on bearings with a hand crank on the end of the shaft so the contents of the tank can be shook up. It will be sealed, the whole tank will spin.

It will be on its side in the cranking position and will also be on a small trailer that can be placed in the sun and also tilted for complete draining.

My electric biodiesel days are over. My next batches will be with this setup.

Some stuff and ideas : http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=search&reqWord...Type=1&search=Search

Steve

I don't know Steved... Seems like a tank big enough to process anything more then a few gallons at a time will take a lot of hand cranking to turn out quality fuel. You must have me beat in human energy and spare time!

I think I'm one of the 6 that Tilly is referring to, but I still like the basic appleseed design. Although I hate to disagree with a guru like Girl Mark, I have to agree with Tilly that a closed vent, among other things, is dangerous. My processor has an always open vent with no valve that can accidentally be left closed. I think that's why when it happened to me, I just got a lot of noise and smoke instead of an actual explosion. My water heater was bought brand new, so there was no corrosion to weaken the tank.

I still use the same processor. I have 4 feet of condensing pipe for the vent, and process at 140 deg. F. with 20% methanol. It consistently turns out fuel that passes the 3/27 test with no dropout, so I don't think I am losing enough methanol to warrant the risk of a closed vent pipe! For additional safety, I also replaced the heating element with one that is designed to be turned on dry with no damage, and have redesigned my system so that the element is only on when initialy heating the oil of a full load before the methanol is added. I don't believe the heating element itself ignited the methanol, it's the spark created when the heating element melts that does it.

With these additional safety precautions, I still feel the appleseed is a wonderful design that allows folks to make biodiesel without spending a fortune for other designs.

I have never had this problem in the past for two good reasons.
1- I heat my oil in a pan on a propane burner then pour it into my barrel. The barrel has a 6000W element in it, but I never got around to wiring it up...
2- My barrel has a steel relief valve on top that is set at 25 pounds and is WAY oversized for the barrel.

So what are you proposing? A level switch in series with the element? A flow or pressure switch on the discharge of the pump that shuts off the pump if there is no flow or pressure with another interlock or relay that prevents the element from coming on unless the pump is running? What is your idea?

-Jim

I can see some of the points you make Tilly, but I don't see others. I think the valve on the vent is not a good idea. I am leaving mine off and making sure a methanol recovery set up is used instead. My kit came with a pressure relief valve set for 5lbs, if I leave my vent open this valve will never be necessary. The heating element is an issue, but on the other hand the "Events" occurred when people did something wrong, such as, having the element uncovered while the element is on. I don't see how a explosion proof motor will help make things safer.
What needs to be done is to have these units used with proper ventilation. In these forums I keep reading about people having a variety health problems with this process and it seems to always lead back to improper ventilation to keep the fumes down. Human beings are creatures of habit. If a person makes a habit of cutting corners, coming up with new short cuts, not paying attention, and not respecting what forces are being dealt with, people are going to get burned (No pun intended.).
An idiot switch to prevent the heater from coming on while uncovered is probably a good idea. Perhaps a current monitor set to trip if the current gets to high.
But even the safest machine will prove unsafe if not used properly.
As to, used vs new water heaters, none of the accidents have come from rust through. If we are filling these units with oil, that will have the effect of stopping rust, not encouraging it.
I wish to understand your proposals. Could you be more specific?

My appleseed processor has a 5 pound relief valve on it that I got from Graydon from the beginning. I have forgotten to close the top valve when putting in my Methanol and also the water wash I usually put in at the end of the cycle and it blew that valve.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Garybio,

quote:

don't know Steved... Seems like a tank big enough to process anything more then a few gallons at a time will take a lot of hand cranking to turn out quality fuel. You must have me beat in human energy and spare time!

Hi Wayne,

It will be for 80 liter batches. I use about that much biodiesel a month.

We were able to make biodiesel that water washed with no problems using a canoe paddle to mix. We would mix real hard at first then come back every 10 mins or so and mix some more. We didn't have to mix the whole time.

I will find out and let you know.

Steve

Steved,

Did I get that right? You're using a canoe paddle in an open top reactor, working hard - breathing deep, with methanol??
It's been nice knowing you, but I'll have to miss your funeral.

You can make BD that way for sure, but the question is will you be alive to burn it?

Hello Andrew

When Dhill edited This post in April 2006 he was still alive and so was his Landrover Discovery.

Tilly,

Does he still use the stick method?

If he is, is he still using the same stick? That could be the key to his success!

Oh well he's Australian, what can you expect? None of them ever wash over there.

quote:

It will be for 80 liter batches. I use about that much biodiesel a month.

Wow...80L would get me through a week...I have to run a 130L Appleseed-maximum-capacity-batch every weekend or I won't have fuel to get to work the next week. I try to stay ahead by making 2 batches over a 3 day weekend

But I've contemplated the "Rolling Drum" processor a few times; much more chaotic mixing than anything else, short of a BioPro-esque embedded impeller. My brother built and uses a tanner that is a rolling drum (he's a taxidermist), and its everything a process mixer would need to be, except for the heating.

Tilly,

quote:

The last I knew Dhill was still using the Flat Stick Technique (Pat Pend)

Just so I am clear...

You have all these concerns over appleseed safety, but no concern at all about mixing in a open tank with a stick?

This seems like you are a bit uneven in you approach, at least to me it does.

Hello Andrew

I can not recall saying that I had no concerns at all about mixing in an open drum with a stick as used with the Flat Stick Technique (Pat Pend).
I have had a good close look and can find no reports on this forum that using this procedure has resulted in any fires or explosions or for that matter methanol poisoning.
Also, more to the point, I can find no one advising newbes that either the Flat Stick technique (Pat Pend) or the Canoe Paddle technique is safe and is the best way to start making biodiesel.

Just so I am clear...
Do you feel that the 6 fires/explosions in appleseed reactors reported on this forum plus the others that Rick and Graydon know of are acceptable and are of no concern?

Tilly,

So you do realize how silly and unsafe it is to use a stick to mix during the reaction. Unless the stick is very long, it seems clear to me that this method would lead to some degree of methanol exposure.

Question: Those who poison themselves this way, who exactly will come back and report that to us?

I took your lack of comment to mean that you saw no problem with it. Since you seem pretty quick on the safety comments and all.

I am concerned... I suggest that anyone who makes BD should be very careful.

Hi Ryan P. ,

I will be able to make biodiesel at higher temps too. I am interested in how much mixing is needed at different temps.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan P.:

quote:

It will be for 80 liter batches. I use about that much biodiesel a month.

Wow...80L would get me through a week...I have to run a 130L Appleseed-maximum-capacity-batch every weekend or I won't have fuel to get to work the next week. I try to stay ahead by making 2 batches over a 3 day weekend

But I've contemplated the "Rolling Drum" processor a few times; much more chaotic mixing than anything else, short of a BioPro-esque embedded impeller. My brother built and uses a tanner that is a rolling drum (he's a taxidermist), and its everything a process mixer would need to be, except for the heating.

The canoe paddle processor (Pat Pend) is a very simple processor.

You can cut a hole in the lid that the canoe handle will fit through.

Go to Lowes a get a piece of PVC pipe and fit a short piece in the lid.

With the handle through the pipe and lid seal it with an old tire tube using rope.

You now have a sealed mixer using a canoe paddle !

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by PGBiodiesel:
Steved,

Did I get that right? You're using a canoe paddle in an open top reactor, working hard - breathing deep, with methanol??
It's been nice knowing you, but I'll have to miss your funeral.

Hello Andrew
I am glad to see that you are concerned about the fires/explosions that have occurred in Appleseed Reactors.
I am curious, while being concerned, do you feel that fires and explosions are just a part of making biodiesel and that the Appleseed reactor design does not need to be re-considered in view of the frequency of fires/explosions that seem to be occurring in them, or do you think that there might be a problem with the design than requires fixing?
It is just that until the Appleseed reactor came along, reports of fires and explosions in reactors on this forum were very rare.

If anyone would like to post their thoughts on whether these fires/explosions in appleseed reactors are or are not acceptable feel free to.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Morris:
Tilly,
I am concerned... I suggest that anyone who makes BD should be very careful.

quote:

If anyone would like to post their thoughts on whether these fires/explosions in appleseed reactors are or are not acceptable feel free to.

It is not acceptable to me. My #1 biodiesel goal is to never have a fire.

I would suffer the problems of underconverted, unwashed fuel first !