I've about an inch variation in the depth from 65- 140GF I agree a couple gallons difference isn't going to cause a bad batch. If you remove the cover where the heating element is you can measure the outer layer and its going to be the same on the opposite side ,so you can determine the actual tank diameter, minus about 1/4 inch ( the total of 2 tank wall thicknesses.

Volume measurements will be better than estimate/calculations as described.

1-2 gallons can make a difference depending on how thin you are cutting methanol. More precise is better. BTW, 2 gallons off in a 35 gallon batch is almost 6% error. If your methanol measure is sloppy too, it can and will cause bad batches.

quote:

Well, it sounds to me like you're begging for the wolf to eat you.

quote:

Not sure I understand that comment. What do you mean? You were the person that posted this, right? "Ufo: it's not my intention to create a confrontation." I'm sure this still stands?

Sorry, that's a fairly popular saying in my country. It means that you're trying to find problems instead of solutions, that you're aiming for the worst possible outcome.
Yes, I still don't want to create a confrontation. But I also don't want the wrong information to stand as true. As you clearly said, anybody with half a brain would turn the water heater upside down, to avoid having the problem with the leftover liquid on the concave bottom. So now that we've agreed on that, it becomes clear that using water to graduate the tank is just a minor complication.

Humm,
That gives me a lot to think about.
I am using a 50 gal water heater. Have made a standard Appleseed reactor, starting from Girl Mark’s book since I took all her classes at Piedmont Biofuels Coop in NC. Ended up using the design from the Home Brew Biodiesel manual.

Now I am wondering if there is going to always be fluid left in the reactor, will this be an issue in the long run. Maybe not.

What about pressuring the water heater with compressed air to force any moisture out?

If there is no easy way then, I can do the measuring with oil. It will take longer, but I will have a more accurate measurement.
I plan on taking a cube filling using my 1000ML Graduated Cylinder to a near the top and mark it.
Then suck into the reactor with the pump. Refill and cub and mark the sight tube.
Fill till full.
Then drain back into cubes to see if any is left in the reactor.

Thanks for all the feedback

Did you invert the water heater?
If you did, you won't have any issues. If you didn't, Glycerin will settle in the bottom. That will give you an extra issue: If you graduate your tank before making any BD, once you make some and glycerin settles on the bottom, all your graduations will be off. That may or may not be a problem, depending on how big your batches are going to be, and on how much volume your tank holds in the bottom.
If you didn't turn your tank upside down, I'd recommend you to do it. It'll make your life easier.

quote:

Originally posted by GreenHasher:
Humm,
That gives me a lot to think about.
I am using a 50 gal water heater. Have made a standard Appleseed reactor, starting from Girl Mark’s book since I took all her classes at Piedmont Biofuels Coop in NC. Ended up using the design from the Home Brew Biodiesel manual.

Now I am wondering if there is going to always be fluid left in the reactor, will this be an issue in the long run. Maybe not.

What about pressuring the water heater with compressed air to force any moisture out?

If there is no easy way then, I can do the measuring with oil. It will take longer, but I will have a more accurate measurement.
I plan on taking a cube filling using my 1000ML Graduated Cylinder to a near the top and mark it.
Then suck into the reactor with the pump. Refill and cub and mark the sight tube.
Fill till full.
Then drain back into cubes to see if any is left in the reactor.

Thanks for all the feedback

Having fluid left over after draining is not that big a deal. It makes it harder to get all the glycerol out of the bottom when draining it. What I do is drain it until I see a little bit of bio coming out with it, then drain a 5 gallon bucket full of mix, as fast as I can. This get most of the rest of the glycerol out, and you can let that settle while you transfer the bio out of the heater.

Believe me, when you pump out the entire contents after a reaction, the fluid left in the bottom is bio, not glycerol. Either way, this presents no problems for your next reaction, and this is the reason why you calibrate after you fill a little bit, then drain before you begin your calibration.

UFO: what is it with you?
Just yesterday you said:

quote:

And of course I know about the turnover, I've made and currently use one. It's very nice to get 99% of the glycerol out instead of 90%, making washing much easier.

And now you're saying the leftover fluid is not a big deal?
If it's not a big deal, why did you turn yours over?

And then, within the same post, you say:

quote:

It makes it harder to get all the glycerol out of the bottom when draining it.

And then:

quote:

the fluid left in the bottom is bio, not glycerol.

So what is it, Glycerol or "bio, not glycerol"?

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:
UFO: what is it with you?
Just yesterday you said:

quote:

And of course I know about the turnover, I've made and currently use one. It's very nice to get 99% of the glycerol out instead of 90%, making washing much easier.

And now you're saying the leftover fluid is not a big deal?
If it's not a big deal, why did you turn yours over?

And then, within the same post, you say:

quote:

It makes it harder to get all the glycerol out of the bottom when draining it.

And then:

quote:

the fluid left in the bottom is bio, not glycerol.

So what is it, Glycerol or "bio, not glycerol"?

I guess if you haven't any experience with processing in water heaters you might not know what I'm describing.

A turnover will drain most of the glycerol out without having to "flush" it, as I described above, with the bio on top. After you have moved the bio out of the processor, the remainder in the heater (NOT a turnover) is biodiesel because all the glycerol is flushed. I discovered this when I got rid of my first Appleseed to build a bigger one.

I've tried to be clear, let me know if I succeeded.

quote:

I've tried to be clear, let me know if I succeeded.

No, you haven't. You actually have failed to answer every single one of the questions in the post you quoted, so let me repeat them for you.

1. If the leftover fluid in the tank is no big deal, why did you turn yours over?

2. In the same post you say a "not turnover" tank "makes it harder to get all the glycerol out of the bottom when draining it", and then, just a few lines after, you said "the fluid left in the bottom is bio, not glycerol".
So, what is it, glycerol or "bio, not glycerol"?

Are you sure you're trying to be clear?

If you are interested in using an appleseed, I'll give you my take as I'm using one in the upright position...NO PROBLEMS...the only thing I did when I built my system is to put a 2x4 under neath the back side and screw it down using "L" clips so it won't tip. I think this aids in draining the glycerol.
When I begin getting a little BD after draining the glyc., I stop for a few seconds then crack it open and let it trickle out...stop a few seconds, trickle some more until I think I have most of it. Then when I pump to the wash drum, I divert the first 1/2 gallon, maybe less, to a bucket. This finishes draining any glyc that was settled in the processor as well as the circulation lines.

I've never had any problems.

Racers use a stuff called "block filler”. Does any one know if this stuff is impervious to Bio, glycerol, meth, etc.? It is poured into the coolant passages of an engine to make the bottom of the block stronger. In a purpose built drag race car, where the engine is shut off after going 1/4 mile, the engine is not running long enough to worry about overheating. DON’T do this to an engine that will be used for anything over 1/4 mile. With the bottom drain removed, slowly pour in the “filler” and if the filler is thin enough it will leave a nice flat surface when it dries. This would eliminate any space for any liquid to stay behind. $13 or $14 U.S. for a gallon.

Hi
A seperate settling tank built like a standpipe wash tank/insulated, would assure 100% glycerol removal from your batch.

I dont think residual glycerin or bio in the HWH would hurt anything. Unless it gets chunky between batches.

I have the means to get around the convex bottom. A cutoff wheel and welder.

See attached link to see how a disassembled HWH is constructed (or re-constructed).
http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?t=669

The factory bottom does seem like it would retain over a gallon of fluid.
I dont like the idea of using water to meter the factory HWH, why not just wait till your first batch and use your good oil. Put in oil till it reaches the bottom port, drain till it wont drain anymore, and then start metering.

I use a metered bucket and pour it in the top port with all circulation valves open. I use multi colored zipties with taped flags instead of marking the tubing. That way if there is a change in the plumbing later, the tubing wont have confusing Sharpie marks everywhere.

HTH,
Brian

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:

quote:

I've tried to be clear, let me know if I succeeded.

No, you haven't. You actually have failed to answer every single one of the questions in the post you quoted, so let me repeat them for you.

1. If the leftover fluid in the tank is no big deal, why did you turn yours over?

2. In the same post you say a "not turnover" tank "makes it harder to get all the glycerol out of the bottom when draining it", and then, just a few lines after, you said "the fluid left in the bottom is bio, not glycerol".
So, what is it, glycerol or "bio, not glycerol"?

Are you sure you're trying to be clear?

Well alright, since you care so much about how and why I process, let me spell it out just for you, again.

STANDARD APPLESEED GLYCEROL SEPARATION

Drain glycerol until bio starts coming out. Close drain valve. Move hose to bucket. Open drain fully and fill bucket. Set aside for pouring off biodiesel later. Pump out remainder of tank into wash receptacle. Contents still inside the reactor that cannot be drained is BIODIESEL, it will not affect the next batch. Hence the advice to fill and drain BEFORE calibration, and why NOT to use water.

To answer your questions directly:

1. I'd rather not flush and re-separate the final 5 gallons of glycerol. That's why I built a turnover, beside the fact I needed a bigger processor. Any glycerol that gets into the wash makes it that much more difficult to wash the biodiesel. A turnover saves time.

2. AFTER the glycerol is flushed from the reactor, biodiesel remains.

I'm sorry if you don't get the minutia of processing in a water heater, but if you really want to know, by all means, build and operate one.

I'm also sorry to the OP and others for rehashing this yet again.

[/thread hijack]

quote:

Well alright, since you care so much about how and why I process, let me spell it out just for you, again.

STANDARD APPLESEED GLYCEROL SEPARATION

Drain glycerol until bio starts coming out. Close drain valve. Move hose to bucket. Open drain fully and fill bucket. Set aside for pouring off biodiesel later. Pump out remainder of tank into wash receptacle. Contents still inside the reactor that cannot be drained is BIODIESEL, it will not affect the next batch. Hence the advice to fill and drain BEFORE calibration, and why NOT to use water.

Ok. Just to avoid any misunderstandings, let me be very clear on this:

I don't care AT ALL about how or why you process.

What I care about is you (or anybody else) willingly giving wrong information to people that trusts them.

But let's take a look at what I just quoted:
Basically, what you're saying is that going through all that process EVERY TIME you produce a batch is not big enough a deal, compared to just opening the valve and just draining everything in one step (to the settling tank), to justify the HUGE( ) effort of turning over your tank.
And then, you go ahead and say:

quote:

To answer your questions directly:

1. I'd rather not flush and re-separate the final 5 gallons of glycerol. That's why I built a turnover, beside the fact I needed a bigger processor. Any glycerol that gets into the wash makes it that much more difficult to wash the biodiesel. A turnover saves time.

So again, what is it?
It's no big deal for others, but it is for you?
Or maybe the time it saves is only important when it's your time?

quote:

2. AFTER the glycerol is flushed from the reactor, biodiesel remains.

Really? Let's go back to your "standard appleseed glycerol separation" bit for a second.

Once you finish processing (on an appleseed, a cone bottom, or any other reactor except the Push Pull) you have two choices: you either drain the bio/glycerol RIGHT AWAY, in which case what's left on the bottom will be bio with variable percentage of glycerol, depending among other things, on how long it takes you to drain the tank, or you settle the glycerol (which seems to be the case in your "standard" thingy), in which case, since it is PRECISELY the glycerol what settles on the bottom (because it's heavier than bio, even in the appleseed), which means your leftover will be GLYCEROL, NOT BIO.
So, assuming you're not cutting the top of your tank open for easy access (which, at least in my book, would be a lot more complicated than turning your water heater over), how are you planning to get rid of the now settled glycerol? (Somehow, in your "standard" bit you forgot to mention that).
So how is it that on the bottom you end with "only bio", when glycerol is heavier?
Since you seem to think that (at least for others) inverting the tank is not really necessary, what are you inverting? Gravity?

quote:

I'm also sorry to the OP and others for rehashing this yet again.

Well, being that you're so upset for this "hijacking", what do you say you come clean, and stop going around in circles trying to come up with an escape that's just not there?
Believe me, you can check my prior posts: I will not let go until you stop trying to mislead others, for whatever agenda drives you.

Wow, berny, for someone not "wanting a confrontation", you sure are hung up on some trivial crap. Why not just chill? If you've got an issue, take it up on another thread or a PM or something?

And if you thinnk I'm misinforming anyone, state what you think it is, as you seem to be talking past me now.

quote:

If you've got an issue, take it up on another thread or a PM or something?

Negative. I don't have a problem with you. I have a problem with the way you're polluting THIS THREAD, not "another one".
So, again, if this discussion bothers you so much, why don't you stop going in circles?

quote:

And if you thinnk I'm misinforming anyone, state what you think it is,

Hmmm, so you're saying that my last post was somehow unclear as to what are you being misleading about?
What part of it did you find unclear?

And by the way: I don't "think" you're misinforming anyone. I KNOW you are.

One last thing: I happen to notice you chose to ignore the statements from my last post, and instead post your vague ad hominem attack disguised as a complaint. What is it? Did your imagination run out?

"Cuiusvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare."

Marcus Tullius Cicero.

I really like this cartoon:

Ouch!

Oh My Goodness, ain't that the truth. Just look at the state of things in America: economic collapse combined with expensive wars on terror and on drugs which can never be won.... Just think of how different it might have been if the Internet Truth Police had just been more diligent.

Just for the record (I mean, in the odd chance that you may have directed that cartoon at me... ), I don't mind if someone is wrong. I've been wrong, in this forum and others, countless times. It gives you a chance to learn.
What I do mind is people that will rather mislead others than accept their mistake.