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I have for some time been considering using eductors in my processor as it appears that they make a pump much more effective as far as mixing action is concerned with a considerable reduction in processing times.On Rickdatechs site he discusses high pressure nozzles and I wonder how they compare to eductors in improving mixing. My processor is a 230 liter cone bottom driven by a Pedrollo cpm170 pump which delivers 160 litres a minute when pumping water so would pump a bit less with oil.I want to install 3 high pressure nozzles which each reduce from 20mm to 8mm spaced evenly around the processor 15 cm from the wall and 75MM below the surface. I would be interested to know what our more learned members think of this and particularly Rick who has had experience with this.
 
Location: Kokstad.Kwazulu Natal.South Africa | Registered: June 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jock,
At the flow rate through your pump I doubt an eductor would help much. If the pump is underpowered to an extent an eductor can work well, but if the mixing from the pump is very efficient there is no or very little difference.

I use a clarke tam 120 pump, 1500 watts. It pumps at 60 to 65 lpm with bio/oil (rated at 75lpm with water) and has a head of 65 metres.

I have tried a few eductors on this and once had an unmodified 1/2" eductor that gave a nozzle velocity of 28metres/sec. The pressure was 71psi and it sounded like a steam coffee maker.

Needless to say I had to tame it down and drilled the eductor out to 8.5mms. It now pumps at 31psi. Having said all that I have removed it and there is very little difference in the reaction in terms of time or chemicals.

As Tilly once told me "the magic is in the pump"

I'm sure he will be along soon!
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dave Thank you for your reply.Are you saying that if you have a reasonable pump you won't see such a marked difference. Is it that if a pumps is on the small side the eductor has a more noticeable effect.There are some people who have some remarkable processing times 45 mins to completion, but maybe they have the rest together as well, such as properly dry low titrating oil and quality chemicals.I have had good oil up to now titrating between 1 and 2 but my suppliers are starting to overuse the oil and I'm getting oil at T10 with chicken fat in it, so I'M looking to start an acid base process .I'm a bit concerned because I have about 120 litres of this mixed with 80 litres of .a batch that didn't separate.I would like to do an acid base on this but the 80 litres will have Koh and methanol in it and will probably have a neutralizing effect on the acid.You have experience with the acid base process how would you go about combating any neutralizing effect that may happen here.
Regards Jock
 
Location: Kokstad.Kwazulu Natal.South Africa | Registered: June 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hi Jock,
Yes, thats exactly what I am saying. If your pump is giving you something like 120 litres/min you have no need for an eductor.

If you are getting oil in at a consistant 10 titration then acid/base would give you a better yield, but if you are altering your set up then (on a personal note) I would live with it. A titration of 10 KOH means your yield will be down another 5% or so. Unless you are really short of oil is acid/base really worth the hassle.

I did acid/base on oil titrating at 5 or so for a couple of years and found it a total waste of time. If you were producing commercially then it's a different matter, but for a home brewer I wouldn't say it is worth it.

There are other things you can look at such as caustic stripping/drying or an enhanced glycerol pre-wash which would give you dry oil when those FFA's were neutralised.

Cheers, Dave.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jock,

quote:
Originally posted by Jock:
I have for some time been considering using eductors in my processor as it appears that they make a pump much more effective as far as mixing action is concerned with a considerable reduction in processing times.
Over the years, I have observed that the single biggest reason for problems with the reaction is inadequate mixing vigour. The pump being used is not of sufficient power to do the job.
The reason for this is that many people use little cheap 370 Watt/ 0.5HP water pumps to mix 200 litre batches of biodiesel. This is insufficient mixing vigour for that size batch.

I have looked up your Pedrollo cpm170 pump which I see is rated at 1100Watts/1.5HP.
I suspect you do not have any problem making biodiesel in a single stage or in a timely manner using this pump.

As far as I can tell, there are two main reasons to use an eductor-
1. The mixing pump is almost adequate to do a single stage reaction that passes warnqvest/ 3-27 and a little extra mixing vigour from an eductor is all it takes to pass the single stage reaction.

2. The mixing pump has adequate mixing vigour and all you want to do is speed the reaction up.

The Test Dgs performed falls into the second category.
Dgs was using a pump that had plenty of mixing vigour. He wanted to determine whether using an eductor would push the reaction further towards completion or whether the eductor was just quicker.
His test results showed that using an eductor was faster but the amount of completion did not vary to any great degree whether there was or was not an eductor installed.

I have never used an eductor.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dgs,

quote:
Originally posted by Dgs:
As Tilly once told me "the magic is in the pump"

I think you might find that what I actually said was:
'The "magic" is in the prewash, not the eductor Wink '
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...667036973#3667036973






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Jock,

quote:
Originally posted by Jock:
.There are some people who have some remarkable processing times 45 mins to completion,
Indeed!
That very claim was made not long ago on this forum.
And not only was that a single stage reaction to completion in just 45 minutes but it was at room Temperature!!! Wink






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Tilly thank you for your valuable input.Are you saying that no heat was applied and the process was completed in 45min single stage? Why then do we apply heat ? Was this to test the vigour of the reaction.I have this problem,I have 120l oil that titrates at 10 which I suspect has chicken fat in it which I mixed with 80 l oil from a process with KOH that didn't separate. The 80l will have koh and some methanol in it. I was going to do AE but on rethinking the KOH in the 80l will have a neutralizing effect on the batch.Does one up the acid to counteract this? Or perhaps do some sort of caustic stripping to get the titration level down? Regards Jock
 
Location: Kokstad.Kwazulu Natal.South Africa | Registered: June 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jock,

quote:
Originally posted by Jock:
Are you saying that no heat was applied and the process was completed in 45min single stage?
That is what he claimed.
Unfortunately, the person who made this claim often makes amazing claims that us mere mortals are not capable of reproducing so I tend to not give much credence to what he says anymore.



quote:
Why then do we apply heat ?
Indeed.
If you believed what was posted he said;
"I mostly react at ambient temperature and leave each stage around 45 mins, it works very well."



quote:
I have this problem,I have 120l oil that titrates at 10 which I suspect has chicken fat in it which I mixed with 80 l oil from a process with KOH that didn't separate.
The 80l will have koh and some methanol in it.
I was going to do AE but on rethinking the KOH in the 80l will have a neutralizing effect on the batch.Does one up the acid to counteract this?
Or perhaps do some sort of caustic stripping to get the titration level down? Regards Jock
With the chemicals you already have in the oil I think A/E or caustic stripping is not an option.
If it were me and I wanted to try to save the batch I would do 1 litre test batches using more and more KOH and methanol until I achieved separation.

How much methanol and KOH per litre WVO did you put in the 80 litres batch that did not separate?
What did the oil titrate?
Is the oil dry?

At this point, as far as I can see, it is just a try it and see what happens






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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T 10 oil processed in a single base reaction will have greatly reduced yield, I found that you loose about 2% of your yield for every point of T.


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Tom in this instance we are talking 20% assuming 95% with a good reaction and good dry oil we're
talking a loss of 38 litres of biodiesel. How would you react the 200litres we are talking about. Thanks for your input Tom
 
Location: Kokstad.Kwazulu Natal.South Africa | Registered: June 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Tom in the 200 litre batch above we would lose 38 litres of biodiesel assuming a batch of good dry oil with a T of 1 or 2 and 95% yield.How would you go about processing the oil mentioned above Tom is AE possible considering that there is KOh in the oil. And if so how would you counteract this.Thanks Jock
 
Location: Kokstad.Kwazulu Natal.South Africa | Registered: June 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Jock,
At this stage it is too late to do an AE procedure.

Tell us all about the first reaction that did not separate.
Did you use one of the silly 2 stage titrationless methods?






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jock I agree with Tilly on this one, it's probably too late to do AE, However, if you like to experiment I would suggest adding small amounts of acid to the batch until you reach a PH of 1 or less, don't forget to add the methanol! I have never had an acid esterification reaction not work when the oil was dry and the PH was 1 or less. I used a Milwaukee PH meter.


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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http://www.bete.com/products/spraynozzles.html
If you are planning on using nozzles of any type first check out this site. They are industrial nozzle distributors and have a search feature to help you find a distributor near you (or closest). I have used their nozzles and can affirm that they are top of the line. You buy them once and then don't have to worry about them needing replacement (stainless steel construction).



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have managed to rescue the problem batch. I have installed a turbo dryer and tested with a carbide manometer .I dried the oil down to 200 ppm and drained off some rubbish from the bottom.I then re titrated and to my surprise the oil was at 5T and clear.I decided to process with base base method using 20% methanol and 12 gms per litre Koh after processing for an hour got excellent separation and a clear 27/3 pass albeit a bit hazy.I am confidant that after the second stage it will be bright and clear Thank you all for your help and many thanks and to IMB for giving us the Turbo Dryer and carbide manometer.No more bio spraying all over the place, the Turbo Dryer gets on with job quietly with minimum energy cost.
 
Location: Kokstad.Kwazulu Natal.South Africa | Registered: June 23, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jock,
I am glad to hear that you got things sorted out.

It would have been much more informative for everyone reading this thread if you had told us what production procedure you used and the quantity of chemicals used in the first batch that failed to separate.
Right now all we really know is that for some reason your first reaction failed to separate and now after adding more WVO and chemicals to everything in the reactor it did separate.

Apparently the original problem was not excess water in the reactor because you have not reported make huge amounts of soap,
This leads me to believe the problem with the first reaction was probably just a shortage of chemicals (KOH in particular) which is certainly on the cards if you used a titrationless procedure. Wink



quote:
.I decided to process with base base method using 20% methanol and 12 gms per litre Koh after processing for an hour got excellent separation and a clear 27/3 pass albeit a bit hazy.
You did this re-process on the total 200 litres of oil/biodiesel that was in the reactor?
How much total chemicals did you use in this first stage reprocess?

Just a few points about drying your biodiesel/WVO mixture AFTER performing the first reaction that failed to separate.
All the left over methanol in the reactor would have been removed along with any water that may have been in the reactor.

Apparently, so I read just a few days ago in another thread, if there is any methanol in the oil/biodiesel mixture, the methanol will affect the reading of the carbide manometer the same as water does so any reading made with methanol present in the mix is not a reliable measure for water being present.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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