BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Biodiesel Equipment    GL Push-Pull processor
Page 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ... 26

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
GL Push-Pull processor
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted Hide Post
The HCL is needed because if you take the methanol from the BD without neutralizing the lye first, the BD starts converting back to oil. So, by neutralizing the lye, you avoid that back conversion, and can demeth both BD and glycerol together in only one step.

About the needles, as far as I know, all syringe needles are stainless steel. The problem is that HCL also corrodes SS. The only metal it doesn't corrode is hastelloy, which is difficult to find, expensive, and as I've been told, difficult to machine.
About getting the needles in bulk, that's an extra problem I have, because here in Florida, you need a prescription to buy syringes and/or needles.


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
so with a stainless steel processor, this method will cause issues? How quickly does it start causing problems, and how much should I concern myself with it? (i.e. should I think of avoiding this method with a stainless stell processor?)


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a LOT of inquisitive idiots..."
Pictures of building my processor
 
Location: Louisville, KY | Registered: January 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I don't think it would cause any problems in the processor, because once it mixes with the BD, it'll get neutralized by the lye. The only concern is the HCL delivery mechanism, where the HCL is pure (or somehow pure). Once it enters the BD stream, it should be neutralized almost immediately.


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I'm wondering if it even matters if you are using Muriatic acid which is something like 34% pure....

Haven't tried anything yet. The next time i go to the farm i'll take some sample jars of Muriatic and stick different materials in to test them. I had wondered how long brake line, viton tubing, vinyl tubing, polypropylene tubing, or rubber vacuum/fuel line would last. The thought with the cheaper of those options would be that i could replace a foot or two of vinyl tubing for about $.23 per foot after each batch and just be done with it.
 
Registered: April 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I looked at it too. According to the Cole-Parmer site, the only materials that are compatible with 37% HCL are ABS plastic, Carbon graphite, ceramic magnet, chemraz (FFKM), CPVC, epoxy, fluorocarbon (FKM), kalrez, kel-fr, natural rubber, NORILr, polyetherether ketone (PEEK), ptfe (teflon), pvdf (kynar), tygonr and vitonr, so I rather use 100% HCL, which at least is compatible with hastelloy, the only metal on the list.


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Hi bernyjb

You won't be able to use liquid 100% HCl - it won't exist at room temperature.

Typically 35% is about as concentrated as you can get for room temperature storage.

Muriatic acid is just a solution of Hydrogen Chloride in water. Hydrogen chloride is a gas at room temperature.


Rover 75 + Skoda Fabia on B100
http://www.graham-laming.com

Bicycle on G100 12,000 miles p.a. ( http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/GrahamLaming )
 
Location: UK | Registered: December 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
Hello Graham

So, no 100% HCL then. Damn it! Frown

Do you know how much sulfur is there in H2(SO4)?
Would it be enough for the BD not to pass an emissions inspection, if we use it instead of HCL?


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I was looking for something that would withstand the hcl that is cheeper than Hastaloy. I found this.....Tygon Chemfluor.
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5F...6&product%5Fid=12305
Would this work in say a 1/16 rigid tubing on your chemical inlet with a pinch valve for injecting the acid.


2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel.
Woodmizer Sawmill with 42 hp Kabota diesel.
JD loader
B100 in summer....blends in Winter depending on weather.
GL 300 liter processor
Building a 400 liter GL Push Pull
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Mountains, California | Registered: November 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
bernyjb,

You had natural rubber on that list... that stuff is just over a dollar per foot at an auto parts store... why not just go with that?

Tygon is commonly available at hobby shops as model airplane fuel line.

Viton is available on McMaster-Carr.

you could probably find a 1/4" nylon or ABS barb and a reducer to 1/8" ID tubing... that would be capilary enough i think.

Well, for what i'm doing it will be.
 
Registered: April 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I am thinking the natural rubber would take beating if the BD came in contact with it. So what valve would you be able to use that would withstand the acid?


2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel.
Woodmizer Sawmill with 42 hp Kabota diesel.
JD loader
B100 in summer....blends in Winter depending on weather.
GL 300 liter processor
Building a 400 liter GL Push Pull
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Mountains, California | Registered: November 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
You had natural rubber on that list... that stuff is just over a dollar per foot at an auto parts store... why not just go with that?

Tygon is commonly available at hobby shops as model airplane fuel line.


Well, as Drewry said, you're forgetting that the capillary tube would be submerged in the BD... Natural rubber is just not an option.

Tygon used in R/C planes?
I haven't been into model airplanes for little more than 8 years now, but in "my times" (now I sound like a dinosaur... Big Grin) we used silicone tubing. Are they using tygon now?

Bottom line: the reason I don't like HCL is because, any way you look at it, it implies complications that we might not have if using another acid. For example, if we could use H2(SO4), we could use stainless steel without a problem. What I don't know is if H2(SO4) would introduce enough sulfur to the fuel for it not to pass the emissions tests.


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Tygon fuel line is used for gasoline powerd engines in r/c airplanes. I have a question, can't the hcl be diluted with some other chemical or solucion so it wouldn't be so corrosive but still injectable for our purpose?
 
Location: Aruba | Registered: October 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
There are many different Tygon componds. The stuff used for model airplanes is methanol-proof, but I'm not sure about acid-proof. OTOH, chemical supply houses stock acid proof tubing. Using a pinch clamp is an obvious "solution".
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
As John said, Tygon is the manufacturer. Their Chemfluor brand the one that is acid resistant. It seems to me as none of that would matter if you don't have a valve that is acid proof as well. I was thinking that if you put the tubing 1/16" to 1/8th" and put a silicone plug in the end of it you could inject through the plug and just replace the plug every so often. or maybe a small tube alone would act a a capillary feed as project mentioned.


2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel.
Woodmizer Sawmill with 42 hp Kabota diesel.
JD loader
B100 in summer....blends in Winter depending on weather.
GL 300 liter processor
Building a 400 liter GL Push Pull
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Mountains, California | Registered: November 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Ok, I have 2 versions of my processor. Old and Current. Here is the current one:

http://gallery.mac.com/doug_weiner#100158

and here is a previous iteration from earlier to today. I think it might be interesting to see the learning.

http://gallery.mac.com/doug_weiner/100146

What I am looking right now primarily for is advice/comments about the plumbing: problems I have created, simplifications I could add and anything else you might see. The valve numbering system is based on Graham's drawings, but I had to renumber a few because some now are serving two purposes and one is completely new. Also, I think there must be a better way than numbering the valves sequentially because 3 sets explicitly are open/close pairs (where a 3 way ball valve would do equally as well) and there must be some kind of naming system to indicate this more clearly. I am taking a stab at it here, but I am not convinced there is not a better way yet.

I have one other thing I need help with:

I have some concerns about the sight tube I purchased from McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) (page 520 of their catalog or search 'sight tube'). The issues is two fold. First, although most people making BioDiesel strongly make the argument not to use galvanized materials, I have read that there is little evidence that it actually is a problem in small home brew operations. This sight tube is plated in something, I am guessing zinc, and although I am not overly concerned about this small object reacting with the methanol (is this false hope?), the HCL is a different story. I have put the sight as far away as I think possible from where I will be injecting the HCL (methanol port). Is this far enough? Do you think the HCL and the galvanized sight tube will cause problems or the HCL be to attracted to the catalyst? The second issue with this item are the seals on the thing. Inside the metal tube is a lip, where a Buna-N washer sits and the glass tube rests on that. On the other end of the glass tube is a Buna-N O-ring and a compression nut holding that in place. I am going to need to replace those Buna-N items with something. PTFE would be the best material to use - right? Do PFTE compress? Anyone have a few o-rings or washers they can spare? Hey, it was the most affordable sight tube by far - $30 for 3/4". Or is all of this overkill and I should lose it and use just a squished sight tube?


Well thanks in advance.

Doug

PS. At the end of the Photos, there is a 4 minute movie of set up.
 
Location: Los Angeles | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Nice videos and pictures, the only thing I can think of is I remember Graham saying he uses his site tube to see the color change and that he smushes it down with a light behind to see it. It might be difficult to see the color change with that sight tube.

Also do you have any pictures of the tank on the side with the venturi on it?
 
Location: Vero Beach, FL | Registered: April 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Doug,
That looks great!

I understand the flow and it should work well.

that heating element tube really makes me nervous. I know graham puts it on the outlet side of his pump, but you've got to figure that he uses a thermostat and a pressure relief on it. Yours, while a pretty slick idea, does NOT have those things. Also, even though you faced the tees upward, the oil may siphon out when the pump is off, which is what people object to.

Otherwise, everything looks great to me!
 
Registered: April 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Project, thanks.

I was planning on adding a PID to deal with temp. The idea was to replace that boiler gauge with the thermocouple. As for the relief valve...that is a very good idea. I would rather not have to drill one more hole in my tank for the relief return, so is there some way to tie it back in instead? Here is an idea. Near the top of the tank, there is a 2" port (not pictured) that has a 3/4" hole in it that is currently plugged. This hole will only have liquid over it, when the Oil is filled to its highest and of course when I add the 22% of methanol. If I put in a brass swing check valve there, will that hold back the contents of the tank? Or should I just bite the bullet and drill another hole and ask the welder to come back? Darn, and I just returned a check valve to McCaster-Carr!

Doug
 
Location: Los Angeles | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
Doug: I agree with everybody. You did a great job. Congratulations.
About the relief valve, you don't need to drill another hole. Just connect the RV outlet to the other pipe (the one that's used when you reverse the pump's flow) with a tee, and you're all set.


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
bernyjb,

I am not exactly sure where you are referring hook the RV into. Could you clarify a little (or use photoshop and an arrow? Wink )

Doug
 
Location: Los Angeles | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 ... 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ... 26 
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Biodiesel Equipment    GL Push-Pull processor

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014