Not being conductive is bad, in our case, anyway- static charges can build up (according to for instance racing fuels people who use carboys), and there is NO easy way to ground a plastic tank in the manner that's required for storage of methanol in (steel) drums, for instance.

eddie,

Your number one point was cost.

We both know it's all about the cost of NEW poly vs NEW steel. The DIY guy can find steel tanks at or below the cost of MDPE. The DIY guy is more likely to have the tools and the knowledge to weld on steel than on poly. The DIY guy is able to buy a 40 gallon hot water heater and have it delivered for $250. The DIY guy is able to buy a MDPE 40 gallon cone bottom tank and stand for $250 plus shipping from US Plastics. I don't see much cost savings for the average Joe. Now if you were to buy a bunch of cone bottom MDPE tanks, you could get them for a lot less.

The manufacturing of biodiesel processing equipment requires new components. It requires consistent availability, and it requires low cost factory floor production techniques. The drill bits last longer when drilling MDPE than they do drilling into steel. It Costs less to mass produce poly processors.

Cutting costs seems to be an American preoccupation. I actually applaud it, until it starts to jeopardize the health and safety of the user. There are consequences, this is lawsuit happy America and eventually someone will get hurt by a MDPE processor and bankrupt the builder. Now if you made millions in Silicon Valley a decade ago, then you have resources available to you to protect your assets. If you are a guy trying to pull himself up by his bootstraps, then you are wide open to a lawsuit that could destroy your financial life.

Finally, so the guy finds a deal on a poly tank, with his savings he is able to buy two fire extinguishers. But because his poly tank melted and dumped its biodiesel into the fire before he could get to his fire extinguisher, it doesn't do much good.

quote:

Not being conductive is bad, in our case, anyway- static charges can build up (according to for instance racing fuels people who use carboys), and there is NO easy way to ground a plastic tank in the manner that's required for storage of methanol in (steel) drums, for instance.

silly but honest question:

if methanol isn't safe in plastic why is my methanol shipped to me in black 55 gallon plastic drums?

quote:

Originally posted by im6under:

quote:

Not being conductive is bad, in our case, anyway- static charges can build up (according to for instance racing fuels people who use carboys), and there is NO easy way to ground a plastic tank in the manner that's required for storage of methanol in (steel) drums, for instance.

silly but honest question:

if methanol isn't safe in plastic why is my methanol shipped to me in black 55 gallon plastic drums?

What kind of plastic is it? Believe it or not, some plastics are engineered to be conductive.

For example, the tires on you car are conductive (search for tollbooth workers and static discharge and you will find that this used to be a very serious problem until tires were engineered to be conductive so they can discharge the static electricity before it built up too much. Truck drivers used to actually drag chains behind them to avoid getting knocked unconsious themselves when getting out after a 200 mile drive).

I have no clue if this is the case with your particular plastic drum, I am only pointing out that there may be a possibility that it was engineered to accomodate the methanol.

and before it's pointed out, I know tires are vulcanized rubber, not plastic. I was merely pointing out an analogy as most people assume rubber is an insulator too.

quote:

Originally posted by girl mark:
(apparently in Germany they say stricter things based on the above post)

i don't know what german building laws say about heating oil, or what they said back then. as i said, i wasn't even 12 yet. i just desribed what that room was like. my parents may have gone beyond what the law called for, but since we never had much money, i don't think so.

quote:

Originally posted by Old300D:
The scenario you describe would have already incinerated every single piece of plastic, all the fuel and the entire structure as well before the steel weakens enough to burst.

the point is that the hotter it gets, the less stress a piece of metal can take. take a 1 inch steel pipe and try to bend it. unless you're commander data or mr. incredible, you won't be able to bend that pipe. then heat it up until it starts glowing red, and suddenly it is much easier to bend. see my point?

quote:

Originally posted by eddesaulniers:
does not conduct electricity

how is that an advantage? i'm thinking electrostatic charges here. with water that doesn't matter, but we're talking about flammable liquids (and potentially explosive vapors) here.

Most heavy duty plastic will not spark and do not need to be grounded however I did forget about the liquid inside may need to be. Steel tanks generally have steel supports so they are almost always grounded so they will not hold a charge. I stand corrected.

This thread started out about large applications so my comments are really about larger scale operation like Sunbreak? 2000 plus gallon a day systems. For the home user 55-gallon drums and hot water are cheap and easy to find. However for large operations, 6000-liter stainless steel tanks at auction are expensive or new are even worse. It has been my experiences Polypropylene (the one I am know the best) are very common, especially in farming areas.

After reading many of Mark girl's threads I will assume he or she knows a lot more than I about the production of Biodiesel so I will differ to her or his expertise.


The other thing to note about none metal caged plastics are they cannot handle as much pressure. I have seen a 500-gallon tank sucked in on its’ self ready to implode because the pressure relief was clogged. The other way around ready to explode in Biodiesel plant could be very destructive. (I understand, when they let the air in it popped open and could have held a 100 to 200 gallons.)

quote:

Originally posted by harry747:

quote:

Originally posted by Old300D:
The scenario you describe would have already incinerated every single piece of plastic, all the fuel and the entire structure as well before the steel weakens enough to burst.

the point is that the hotter it gets, the less stress a piece of metal can take. take a 1 inch steel pipe and try to bend it. unless you're commander data or mr. incredible, you won't be able to bend that pipe. then heat it up until it starts glowing red, and suddenly it is much easier to bend. see my point?

Why do you not think I saw your point before? Steel, a 100 lbs processor, or a 15 pound drum, will take perhaps an hour or more to get that hot (800C?). A plastic container cannot conduct heat and will melt IMMEDIATELY and dump it's fuel. See my point?

I don't think there is any debate that plastic has its place and so does steel.

However I have discovered a few interesting tid-bits.

275gal caged HDPE totes used to store fuel outdoors are code compliant in Oregon. Secondary containment is only required on containers 950gal or more. In fact when I checked with a local oil supplier, they stated that they depend on these totes for cheap portable fuel storage, especially at construction sites.

Although totes a pretty cheap, ~$0.60/gal. Steel isn't that bad either. I was quoted $1300 to build a brand new UL listed 1000gal tank. The tank can either be constructed for above or below ground. This includes a 6" emergency vent for the above ground tank and a 2" vent for the below ground tank. They also paint the tank with an asphalt coating if it is to be used below ground. These tanks are pressure tested to 7psi.

Although the cost / gallon is higher, there is more capacity and less space required if located underground. Plus the additional cost isn't that bad for the safety it affords you.

According to the individual I was speaking with, underground tanks are considered almost fire proof.

Stainless on the other hand (more likely for processor applications) is very spendy. I was quoted $2600 for a custom made 330 gal 3 leg vertical tank with a dished bottom and flat top.

At this point, I'm seriously considering some old stainless beer kegs as agitation chambers instead of my HDPE ones. This is the cheapest route for my application. Although I don't get to see as much, it does make me feel better.

So should I make all my connections with pipe instead of hose? I really have relied on the ability to see where problems are. It's a very tough convienence to let go.

--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com

another death

Idahostatesman.com

SeattlePI.com

This is really really bad. This took place close to the Idaho border. I was just there a couple of weeks ago.

My sympathies go out for the Father and Mother of the their son who was killed.

However, I just can't get over the "tank full of soy oil" exploding. Soy doesn't have that behavior, unless heated to very high temps. Even then it seems unlikely. There must be more to the story.

This has been an unfortunate couple of weeks for the Biodiesel movement. I hope this chaos stops.

--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com
503-317-4564

I saw a diesel tank kill a guy that welded on it 1/2 full of diesel...

blast pattern was an easy one hundred feet and lots of fire.

my guess is oil boils away from a wet spot turning to vapor which ignites and instantly increases the pressure in the tank causing a rupture and spewing micro drops of burning fluid everywhere.

just speculation... but obviously however it happens the result is the same.

filling with water before welding leaves little doubt.

Jeff,
Looks like the Portland Tribune just HAD to throw the negative spin on your fire....

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=115223036291292200

Is there any truth to the article? Are they really looking to make it a Hazardous Material? If so, does that mean that that gallon of Canola sitting in Wal-Mart is gonna have a Hazardous Materials label on it now? You know, at the rate we're going with overregulation of everything under the sun, passing gas is going to be classified as a hazardous chemical exposure...

ok, I know, that one was in poor taste, but c'mon....this is just plain stupid!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
... You know, at the rate we're going with overregulation of everything under the sun, passing gas is going to be classified as a hazardous chemical exposure...
QUOTE]

If it were bottled it would be; it's called "natural gas" and is where the idea for biogas came from. No joke, check the operational temps and other conditions required to produce biogas from manure and voila! natural gas, an explosive element more volatile than gasoline.
Some kids enjoy playing with matches to see the pretty blue flame...

devil's advocate:

I'm not totally against all regulations.

I recognize there is no "cracking the door" where the government is concerned, but I wish there were a reasonable set of guidelines in place.

Something on the order of storage regulations for finished fuel. bulk methanol storage out of the process area. The common sense things that could help keep people safe.

I don't believe 99% of the people trying to make biodiesel will ever have a problem or need any regulation whatsoever.

I'm also not without imagination and can see the 1% living in row stacked houses, condo's, and apartments and this guy has a 1000 gallons of oil/bio in storage and tracked throughout his space with sub-standard wiring and no ventilation.

yes I know this is the "retarded" extreme... but be honest... you know it is out there or coming...

of course this guy will happen even with regulation because he wouldn't by the sticker preferring to sneak by.

????? what do you do???? chalk me up for polite education and no more than 500 gallons in approved containers.

Well other than few misquotes, I don't really think the Portland Tribune article is that bad. I understand the "give an inch, take a mile" government perspective. But I really do believe that people should need to register "fuels" of any type over a certain quantity.

I would rather have the fire department over prepared when trying to put out a fire at my place.

Just to restate, but the article mentions that the fire department had no idea. They did know, they just hadn't recorded my address. I met with an spoke with a fire fighter at my local fire station, as well as the fire marshall in town. It took them about 15 minutes to realize that the property they were being called to was my property. They proceeded to call in an additional two trucks, which was very neccesary.

--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com

Just bumping this one back to the top since our favorite biodiesel processor just released a revised processor...

-Graydon

quote:

Well I lost my HP 5890 Series II Gas Chromatography, this is a shame, because I was doing free testing for homebrewers.
...
So .... if anyone has any ideas as to how to cut costs on any of these items, especially with pole building construction, GC, IR, etc. Let me know.

Maybe try SRI Instruments 8610 GC, especially the "educational" model with FID: Educational GC I don't personally know anything about this product except that it caught my eye and it looks a helluva lot better than a 20+ year old HP GC off of eBay that "powers up, but that is the extent of testing performed", if you know what I mean?!

(This is my first post here, BTW, so I also want to say "hi" to all. I'm very excited about the whole biodiesel thing and hope to make a positive contribution to the community soon, especially w/r/t process engineering.)

-Jeff