Oh and I almost forgot to mention ....

There was no processing going on at the time of the fire, all tanks were empty.

When I rebuild, I will still use HDPE for my agitation tanks. My reactor never exceeds 120F, personally I don't understand why all of you heat to such high temperatures.

Of course I don't need to deal with water in my oil since I used processed 'yellow grease' with <2% IMU. I was using the FATTA method, and have produced over 5000 gal using 5 different variations of my reactor. The last revision of course was the coolest and only had a chance to process 1 batch ;(

My GC didn't lie, 120F worked fine.

BTW: If any of you have questions for me, you can feel free to call me after July 4th.

Thanks alot guys, don't get to critical of polyethylene it can be your best friend.

And on another note mixing methoxide in a 5gal metal can is a bad idea, I knew someone who did this and the pressure blew out the plastic opening on top, and spewed hot methoxide all over the place. The HDPE carboys are much more tolerant to pressure build-up. Sometimes I still mix concentrated methoxide this way (we use concentrate + dillute)

In case people were unaware, a 55gal closed-top steel drum can hold almost 70psi before bursting (yes I've tested this)



--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com
503-317-4564

Thanks for the insight into the fire.

If you do get things going back up again, I'm sure several of us would be willing to send biodiesel samples your way to be tested on your GC machine, if you get another one.

Sounds like you had quite the operation.
-Graydon

Thank you for sharing with us Jeff, It was enlightening. I'm sure I speak for many of us on the board that we empathize with you in your loss and are relieved that no one was injured. I wish only the best for you and your family.

I do have to respectfully disagree on the polyethylene. I feel it is not a good choice for a homebrewing processor.

Homebrew processors don't have anywhere near the controls or feedback systems that you had in your plant. Many have habitual leaking problems that can't be resolved. Add to that the fact that some people feel the need to place their processor in their basement or garage and the potential for disaster increases.

In your fire, while unrelated to your production, did in fact melt a poly tote dumping biodiesel into the fire and increasing the intensity of the fire. A steel storage tank would have needed a much higher temperature before it cooked off and caught fire.

Your "agitation" tanks and wash tank were empty at the time of the fire, but if they had contained biodiesel or WVO they would have also fueled the fire as well. Homebrew systems usually have biodiesel in them somewhere along the line, either in the processor or the wash tank.

I have to stand my ground on poly tanks. Your unfortunate fire actually reinforced my opinion.

Rick, you have very valid points for your stance on polyethylene.

I don't think I would recommend it for someone just starting out either. The most common mistake is using a unattended spear heater and melting a hole in the tank, even I have done this (5gal bucket though)

I guess all I was saying is that for small scale processing of 250-500gal batches, I believe it can be made safe, when temperatures don't exceed 120-130F.

The use of HDPE isn't critical, I could have used stainless. I choose HDPE because of cost and the convenience of visual inspection of the vortex chamber. Surprisingly it can tell you alot about what is going on, more so than the sight tube.

As for the tote, the Fire Marshall and I have been talking about what would have been safer in my situation. The structure fire was so hot, that biodiesel stored in common above ground 500gal ag tank would have started to boil and could have achieved a thermal run-away condition.

I don't know if any of you have ever played around with the bathtub of burning glycerin or failed bio-glop before, but the burn behavior gets quite interesting as the temp goes up, regardless of the container.

If anyone knows any hard facts about fuel storage tanks, and their safety characteristics. Please let me know.

An interesting note; When I was in Idaho last month I saw a 2500gal black HDPE tank marked 'diesel', sitting in a concrete basin at a farm of some sort. I've never seen a HDPE storage tank of this size used for fuel storage before. Anyone know if this even legal? When I asked a friend at an oil company about this, he didn't seem to see any problems with it.

However at this time, I'm quite open for advice, so don't let my reply sound like I'm trying to be stubborn. I'm just trying to consider that if in the presence of a very hot structure fire, if there is a hot structure fire will metal tanks be better or worse.

I must admit, that previously when thinking about fire safety of the processor I hadn't considered a fire scenario where the cause was some external event, like if the house caught fire or something and was hot enough to ignite the facility 100 ft away (possible with wind).


--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com
503-317-4564

the fire marshalls who approved Biofuel Oasis here in Berkeley were REALLY reluctant to approve plastic tanks (B.O. now says they should have gone with doublewall steel tanks to avoid the entire year-long headache). ANd that's just for distributing biodiesel, not for production.

I think petrodiesel in those quantities isn't legal in HDPE water tanks.

I think the point of this whole thread is what you just said- that you can't just consider the safety of heating IN an HDPE tank, you have to consider the added danger they present if SOMETHING ELSE sets the area on fire. FOr instance, I know of several fires involving plastic processors, and some of them involved electrical sparks, not anything to do with direct heat (ie heater spear).


As for the point about quality and temperature, I know of an example that's the exact opposite of yours- Blue Ridge Biofuels had trouble meeting spec on their first run with their new plant, and corrected the problem by turning the heat up to 130 the next time around (and have been meeting the ASTM specs ever since). That's a small producer system similar in size to what youre doing.

Several homebrewers have reported the same thing. Feedstock varies and what it takes to convert it varies a bit.

Sorry I didnt' call you tongiht, I got called away from the computer before I got your email.

Also, I think Kumar had a customer with a steel farm tank full of biodiesel that survived a serious structure fire. Give him a call if youre interested in the details- he's Yokayo Biofuels in Ukiah CA.


Mark

Jeff,

A couple of points that might help in the rebuild. Radiant heat decreases with the square of the distance, so moving a tank away from a structure can do a lot to prevent it from heating up. Radiant heat can also be blocked with a simple privacy fence. So if you do decide to continue to use totes for storage, placement and screening may be the way to protect them in the future.

The bubblewrap insulation on the main processor, is it still good, or did it melt?

Interesting about that foil bubblewrap. The plastic bubbles between melted, but the foil seems to have kept up very well with the heat.

As I drove around last night I passed several industrial installations and pondered what would happen if they had a bad fire. The interesting thing is that almost all of them aren't very well protected if a fire broke out when the facility was unattended. I mean look at your average lumber mill (we have lots), sawdust everywhere, piles and piles of scrap wood, barrels of lubricating oil everywhere.

I'll be commmenting on this more and more as I look around at more facilities. I think I'm going to go drive by BioSequential in a couple of days and check out there setup and see what they have done.

I believe that Seattle Biodiesel has all of their processing indoors. They might be a good source for information as well.



--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com

Jeff,

Once again, thanks for being so open & honest with us with all of this. It's been an incredible learning experience for myself. It's truly tragic that this occurred to your operation too as it sounds like you had a really nice setup. Especially that Spectrometer and the GC machine (I about shed a tear for you when I heard that thing went up in smoke for you--I know how spendy both of those things are).

This is great stuff you're willing to share with us.

-Graydon

Let say the biodiesel was in 500 gallon steel tanks and the the fire was going at about 350 F at about 3 feet in the room. Would not the bio be either on fire in the tank shooting flames out any hole in tank like a rocket or if the tank was sealed well a stainless steel bomb?


Secondly, not all plastic has a low melting point Polypropylene has a melting point of 320 degrees Fahrenheit (160 degrees Celsius). If it was a coated polyproplyene it would work well for a biodiesel plant and would be alot cheaper than Stainless.

Lastly, sorry for your loss Jeff Brandt.

Methanol in metal cans is asking for a bomb in the event of a fire;HDPE will melt and the methanol will burn but not explode.
In defense of the heater spear; If it is made with a small "stand" on the bottom elevating it from the floor about 2" by way of a T fitting and short nipple combined with a cap the possibilities of burn-through are greatly diminished should they be left unattended and a shift happen. I use a weighted down wire (a U with weights at each each that goes around the shaft)to hold it in place and it hasn't shifted once. A thermostatically controlled power source could be used to govern the power input to the spear if it must be unattended for any period of time (but still not a good idea).
That is my .02

Quote: (I know of no fires started by a sealed metal processor!)

There was a fire in Staten Island, NY at a biodiesel proccessing plant with metal tanks.

One tank had a leak and they were grinding down the metal to repair the leak. Sparks from the grinder ignited methanol fumes and the tank exploded. The worker was killed.

eddesaulniers,

They don't make Polypropylene coated polyethylene tanks. They do make cross-linked polyethylene tanks, which are much better than the standard MDPE cone bottom tanks with much higher temperature resistance. A well made cross-linked polyethylene cone bottom tank can cost as much as a steel tank. Sadly, people buy the MDPE because they are CHEAPER, so, we don't see cross-linked polyethylene tanks in homebrewing.

graycenphil,

That was not a processor. It was a metal storage tank, not a vented pressure vessel reactor like the water heater processors. There was a huge amount of negligence in that case by everyone involved! Everyone ASSUMED they guy knew not to grind on tanks at a fuel production facility. No one told him what was in the tank, and he didn’t ask. It was a very sad day for biodiesel.

On another note, in a recent story about a fire at a biodiesel plant mention was made of methanol sensors.

Anyone know a source for these?

quote:

Originally posted by Dropout:
On another note, in a recent story about a fire at a biodiesel plant mention was made of methanol sensors.

Anyone know a source for these?

You could try airline maintenance hangars. Methanol is widely used as a de-icer for airplanes and they always have the stuff around, so they would also have the necessary safety equipment around too.

Dropout,

The personal methanol sensors that have an alarm that goes off when you exceed safe dosage cost $300+ and have an expensive cartridge that is consumed and needs to be replaced regularly.

The fixed sensor systems that connect to automation equipment (computers) is gennerally $3000+

Gas monitoring Badges are available in methanol:
here for $130 for a box of 10 badges.

I honestly am torn about the issue of fire safety when looking at plastic vs. metal.

On one hand, if you have fuel in a plastic tank, and there is a fire, the plastic WILL melt, and you WILL have XXX Gallons of combustable fuel added to that fire.

On the OTHER hand, if you have fuel in a steel contain, and there is a fire, then, well, you have a bomb. (Ever thrown a propane tank in a fire?).

Even a metal tank will eventually fail. So, unless the tank is insulated (with fire proof insulation no less) and has a substantial pressure relief system on it, you risk a catastrophic failure that is far more likely to kill or injure someone than simple dumping 500 gallons of fuel into a fire.

Biodiesel is NOT equal to propane in a fire, my friend. Methanol, maybe (and, sorry, the extablished protocol for handling it says to store it in metal), but it takes a lot of heat to build up pressure from hot biodiesel in a tank in a structure fire.

Also, I've personally experienced a methanol vapor fire/explosion (NOT while making biodiesel- this happened because we were playing around with Babington Burners and the fuel we were using contained a lot of methanol) that was inside a steel barrel. Sorry to dissapoint everyone, it didnt turn into a bomb- the barrel deformed, and it's rolled edge unrolled (and I ran much faster than I thought possible) but that was it. I've also heard similar stories from others who've tested barrels.

Mark

quote:

Radiant heat decreases with the square of the distance, so moving a tank away from a structure can do a lot to prevent it from heating up.

Rick,

This depends on the configuration of what what that heat source is. The formula you are talking about addresses a point source. A structure fire is going to more likely resemble a plane source than a point source.

Basically it just means you have to look at the x and y dimensions of your structure and realize that until the distance your tank is from that plane gets larger than the largest dimension of that plane, that the heat radiation is going to fall off more linearly than inverse square.

barrel does not equal tank. It didn't explode because the storage container "gently" deformed and relieved itself of pressure. Tanks are far less likely to fail that way than a barrel is. Bottom line, any time you put a "tank" containing pretty much any liquid - including water - into a fire, then you have yourself the very real potential of a bomb. Vs. a container that can fail without building up pressure, in which case you just have a bigger fire.

I do agree that it "takes alot of heat". But, in a structure fire, that's exactly what you have. Hence, why fuel is not supposed to be stored near things that can burn - regardless of the kind of tank its stored in. Biodiesel will boil somewhere around 185C. Once the material in your tank hits that temperature you will start building up pressure. If your tank is full, then you will start building up pressure way before then. The question, is how and when (not if) its going to fail. I personally would rather have the fire fighters to be saying "well, joe, i think we need to go get the foam truck to put this one out", rather than entering a structure fire and being blown up by an exploding tank.

I'm not advocating storing fuel in plastic tanks or anything. I'm just playing devils advocate (per usual).

Obviously the safest thing is to store fuel well away from flammable/combustable materials.