Note how everything around the processor was OK (cardboard box, steel plumbing, etc) but the polyethylene conical tank turns right into fuel in a fire.

This was from a news story about how hard it was to fight a fire that happened at a biodiesel distributor's barn once the fuel leaked out of it's tanks.

Just glad that guy has nothing to do with nuclear power plants..

something to note of this picture:

In all likelyhood the fire was nowhere near these processors. this looks like smoke and heat damage from a fire elsewhere in the same building, maybe even room, hence the cardboard boxes are indeed intact.

That's' my impression too- absolutely amazing how quickly the processor immediately 'went' compared to the rest of the non-polyethylene stuff.

I would like to see a larger pictuer to see if there is a definitive heat line on the wall or on an item stored against the wall. I would bet that the fire was quickly contained and extinguished as evidenced by the undamaged plastic zip ties stored on a slightly lower height than the plastic tanks.

Actually the fire burned down at least part of the barn - there was a photo of the barn partially collapsed, after they'd put the fire out.

There was also a photo of some melted totes (IBC's) which I THINK (haven't asked the victim directly) is what he'd been distributing commercial biodiesel out of- but I could be wrong about that one.

The fire dept said that homebrewing wasn't the cause of the fire, by the way, but the article focused a lot on the fact that the fire department had great difficulty trouble putting out the fire after biodiesel (1000 gallons or something) leaked out of the distributor's storage tanks and fed the fire.

His 300 gallons of methanol apparently was untouched, thank God.

This is EXACTLY what I worry about with plastic tanks, though- what happens in a structure fire.

Everyone I know (3 people, 4 or 5 incidents) who's had a plastic processor fire, had barely managed to keep it contained.

In several of the plastic processor fires I know about, the fire was started by electrical sparks and methanol present, and then spread because biodiesel leaked out of the plastic tank IMMEDIATELY. It was utter chance that those people all happened to be present when this happened, and were able to fight the fires before they became more serious.

(I know of no fires started by a sealed metal processor!)

Even without the hazards of methanol (in the case of leaks, or caused by people who intentionally vent methanol somehow), structure fires simply happen, on their own.

OB1Canola burned down a house when he overheated a small pot of oil on the stove while doing some tests. Several people have had greasy rags smolder or burn up, and luckily we haven't seen that happen on top of a carboy of methanol yet.

This stuff can happen no matter how careful you are, even if you're not making biodiesel. Biodiesel can make it much more dangerous, or can be done so safely that it's barely different than any common home hazards such as lawnmower fueling or using barbeque propane tanks.


Your processor is ALWAYS going to be full of
a. methanol fumes or
b.oil or
c. unwashed biodiesel which still contains methanol, plus has methanol fumes above the liquid.

All of this is a fire hazard even if the system itself doesn't set off the fire on it's own.

THere's a reason why you'd never see a plastic reactor tank permitted commercially for a full-size installation. They turn a blind eye to us playing with them in 40-gallon batch sizes, but it'll only take one or two incidents like this with homebrewing to attract regulatory attention, and I really hope it never kills anyone.

There have been several incidents involving fire and METAL biodiesel storage tanks (one was a customer of Kumar's , I think, who had a storage tank full of commercial biodiesle that survived a large fire, one was Ob1Canola whose Appleseed tank/metal plumbing seems to have survived the very serious structure fire that had been caused by his stovetop 'cooking accident' (there's photos somewhere)).

It's obvious that it's a lot easier to make metal tank systems safer than plastic tanks, and that it's just about impossible to make plastic tanks safe at all in case of structure fire.

Metal tanks would give you or the firefighters more time to put the fire out rather than melting with the heat and feeding a fire.

I'm not "quite" as worried about plastic wash tanks because there aren't methanol fumes present inside them after water is initially added, so at least they're not as dangerous at starting a fire on their own as plastic with methanol fumes inside it is. I'd rather not use them, but water/biodiesel mixture is a lot harder to set on fire than biodiesel/methanol/glycerine mixture is.

Don't store methanol in 55 gallon barrels for the same reason. IMagine trying to get away from a small greasy rag fire right next to your methanol barrel and it going BOOM.

Incidentally, Appleseed isn't 100% immune to plastic issues in a structure fire. it's a good idea to make your Appleseed plumbing all-metal, including replacing the pump return line (ie the braided hose coming out of the pump) with steel pipe. If you have the design with the separate sight tube , thats relatively easy to accomplish, as you no longer need the pump return line to be able to see the liquid levels in the tank. Metal methoxide mixers are another good idea, but more complex to build than just using carboys.

Remember, polyethylene is fuel.

Pictures of OB1canola's place.



Check out the processor...


I bet the things will still hold pressure. They really don't look like they took that much of a hit. They look about as bad as Tankenstein, which was successfully converted to an Appleseed processor.

Pics of Tankenstein:
http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?t=44

There's something to be said for using a tank that can withstand 300 psi and WAS DESIGNED FROM THE START to handle high temps....that and Steel doesn't burn as easily as HDPE.

-Graydon

Once again, OB1's fire in the two pictures Graydon just posted above was NOT started by his processor.


Here's a snipped of the news article about the Canby, OR fire with the plastic biodiesel tanks:

quote:

Minutes into fire suppression activities it was apparent that this was
no ordinary fire. "We kept sweeping the fire down, and it kept flaring
right back," stated Captain Val Codino. "The fire was burning with
tremendous intensity, more so than would normally be encounter in a
typical structure fire." Firefighters realized that what was burning was
nearly 500 gallons of Biodiesel that had once been stored in 275 gallon
plastic tanks, which melted in the fire causing the combustible liquid
to spill from the tanks freely burn. "When we arrived it looked like a
fuel refinery fire," exclaimed Captain Codino. "Once we found out that
we were battling Biodiesel, all the black smoke and intense heat we were
encountering made since."

Here's the entire article about the Canby fire, quite a good one, actually (fire dept wrote a press release rather than leaving it to the reporter to explain things like flashpoint and biodiesel) :


From: *info@flashnews.net <mailto:info@flashnews.net>*
<info@flashnews.net <mailto:info@flashnews.net>>
Date: Jun 24, 2006 12:30 AM


Press Release from: Canby Fire Dist.
MAJOR FIRE ERUPTS AT BIODIESEL MANUFACTURING SITE- PICTURES
Posted: June 24th, 2006 12:28 AM

At approximately 3:45 PM the CCOM 911 center received a call for smoke
in the area on S Heinze Rd, in the rural area surrounding Canby. Within
minutes several calls started to pour into CCOM stating that there was
large amounts of Black smoke "Billowing" from a residence located at
9801 S. Heinze Rd. Canby Fire arrived on scene at 3:55 and quickly
determined that there was heavy fire involvement to one barn and that
flames were threatening a barn 30 feet to the south.



Minutes into fire suppression activities it was apparent that this was
no ordinary fire. "We kept sweeping the fire down, and it kept flaring
right back," stated Captain Val Codino. "The fire was burning with
tremendous intensity, more so than would normally be encounter in a
typical structure fire." Firefighters realized that what was burning was
nearly 500 gallons of Biodiesel that had once been stored in 275 gallon
plastic tanks, which melted in the fire causing the combustible liquid
to spill from the tanks freely burn. "When we arrived it looked like a
fuel refinery fire," exclaimed Captain Codino. "Once we found out that
we were battling Biodiesel, all the black smoke and intense heat we were
encountering made since."



Jeff Bryant, owner and operator of Sunbreak Biofuels both manufactures
Biodiesel and also brokers Bio-diesel from his rural location. In total,
firefighters believe that there were approximately 1000 gallons of
Biodiesel on site, and as much as 300 gallons of Methanol. None of the
Methanol was ignited in the fire.



Not only were firefighter concerned with the fire hazards of Biodiesel,
but also the environmental impact, since several gallons of Biodiesel
spilled from a heat damaged Biodiesel tank. During a consult with
Hazardous Materials Consultants firefighters found that Biodiesel does
not pose much in the way of environmental concerns, being 100%
Biodegradable.



>From a fire perspective Biodiesel does burn quite violently once
ignited, but Biodiesel tends to be much more stable having a Flashpoint
of nearly 300 degrees, compared to Diesel, which has a Flash point of
125 degrees, and Gasoline, with a Flashpoint of –40 degrees.

* Flashpoint is the minimum temperature at which a liquid will give off
sufficient vapor to form an ignitable mixture with air…in other words
Gasoline can be easily ignited at very low temperatures, diesel must be
heated to 125 degrees to emit an ignitable vapor, and Biodiesel requires
temperatures of almost 300 degrees before it can ignite, which makes
Biodiesel much more stable.



Firefighters from Canby, Monitor, and Aurora battled the fire which was
brought under control in 45 minutes. The fire is still under
investigation, however, Fire Investigators do not believe that the
Biodiesel manufacturing process started the blaze.

Photo/sound file: http://www.flashnews.net/images/news/Bio%201.JPG
<http://www.flashnews.net/images/news/Bio%201.JPG>

Photo/sound file: http://www.flashnews.net/images/news/Collapse.JPG


Photo/sound file: http://www.flashnews.net/images/news/Gas%20Nozzles.JPG

Speaking of.....

Someone asked if those Harbor Freight pumps could withstand heavy temps. Judging from these pictures, I'm betting the pumps still work!

If you look closely, even the blue paint on them looks good.

And even the quick connects and the braided poly tubing held up.

The cardboard box that survived the fire was a Fill-Rite pump.

If you look close you can see the words "the Most Trusted Name in Pumps & Meters".

I'd say that fire's proof of that! Fill-Rites rock!

Those pictures are great!
-Graydon

Another interesting thing to note from the fire...

quote:

Not only were firefighter concerned with the fire hazards of Biodiesel,
but also the environmental impact, since several gallons of Biodiesel
spilled from a heat damaged Biodiesel tank. During a consult with
Hazardous Materials Consultants firefighters found that Biodiesel does
not pose much in the way of environmental concerns, being 100%
Biodegradable.

And, they mentioned that the heat has to be at least 300 Deg. F to ignite the biodiesel. Hmmm...guess those pumps can hold past 250 Deg. F pretty well, eh?
(Ok, ok, so maybe the fire didn't get down to the cardboard box, but still, I'm betting it wasn't cold in there when it was on fire).

-Graydon

Back to that cardboard box. It even has melted poly tank on top of it. The tank melted and some fell on the box but it wasn't even hot enough to catch the box fire!



fire4.jpg (75 Kb, 1362 downloads)

Everyone who likes classic science fiction knows that paper burns at 451 Fahrenheit.

Polyethylene tanks have a maximum safe temperature of 140F, according to the manufacturers.

oh, no!!!!!
here comes the backlash from this incident:

the article (apparently based on info by the same fire dept official who wrote the above press release) says that the fire was started by a faulty power strip in the barn.

http://www.oregonlive.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news/1...cg&coll=7&thispage=1


But they express concern that homebrewing should be regulated and imply that kits and homemade processors are potentially dangerous.

I had the impression that the burning fuel wasn't the homemade stuff, since Brandt also distributes commercially produced, washed biodiesel (I mean, who has 500 gallons of homebrew sitting around?).


But that distinction might be lost on the reporters.

Another article:

http://www.canbyherald.com/CANNews2.html


I am about to write the victim and ask him to take a look at this thread, not sure if he'll want to respond, but since we're talking about him...


I"m also thinking about talking to my connection at Olympia (Wa) Fire Department about this- a few years ago she was assigned to investigate whether homebrewers were a threat, and decided that in general we aren't. However, I brought up the issue of what would happen with plastic tanks in a structure fire when we spoke several years ago. She'd suggested I write an article for some kind of fire department magazine about the issue of homebrew prevailing practices and safety. It might be time to do this before the backlash from this unfortunate incident gets worse.


Also, we should probably contact the fire department involved in this incident to point out that plastic storage is NOT the most common way that homebrewing is done, as other fire depts around the country will probably be calling them every time someone googles 'biodiesel fire' in the future.

Hello everyone....

girlmark let me know that you were talking about the fire, and I figured that I would settle some pressing questions.

Q: What caused the fire?

A: Electrical short inside the wall in our office. This wiring was over 30 years old and had never been touched. There was *NO* load on this circuit (GC, IR, computers, etc, all turned off and physically disconnected).

Q: Did the breaker do it's job?

A: Yes, the breaker was tripped. However the walls in the office had that 70's wood paneling instead of sheetrock, so it only took the momentary arc to ignite the wall. The fire spread inside the wall climbed and reached the ceiling (which was sheetrock) and was delayed until got around it to the loft (lots of 2x6's) and that is where the real heat came into play.

Q: Did you have biodiesel, methanol, etc stored in the office?

A: No, we didn't store any chemicals in the office, other than a helium tank for the GC and I think a 50lb container of anhydrous sodium sulfate (doesn't burn).

Q: So from the looks of the processor it seems like HDPE is a bad idea.

A: I've read all of your concerns on this message board about HDPE for a reactor vessel. However I feel that anything is dangerous if misused. Our main reactor is a sealed 330 gal stainless tank, the dual HDPE tanks you see in the picture are agitation chambers. This reactor was microprocessor controlled with over a dozen temp sensors, 4 independently controlled pumps, 1 low watt density heating element (4500W 240V) and 2 high density heating elements (1500W 240V). If there was some sort leak with the plastic tanks the fluid is contained within base the processor sits on (150 gal capacity) there are also emergency shut off valves (currently manual) at every junction in the system.

Q: Were you homebrewing all of that fuel?

A: Yes and no, I was processing about 250 gal of finished fuel daily. Although since I can't afford EPA registration I couldn't really pump biodiesel into a consumer vehicle. This didn't really matter because I'm located on a farm and surrounded by ag operations in every direction. Most of my fuel went to tractors and combines. But I was getting alot of interest from farmers, and the local community (some not so local) for biodiesel in their vehicles. Some people don't mind picking up a 55gal drum, but most would just prefer to pump into their vehicle. I started getting SoyPower from West Central (Iowa) to pump into on-road vehicles since it had fulfilled the EPA requirements.

Q: The fire fighters seemed surprised by the blaze, were they unaware of your operation?

A: I had visited my local fire department and also some of the remote stations in the region and informed them of my setup and seeked advice for proper storage and registration requirements. When the fire broke out a few of the fire fighters remembered my street and called for backup just as the first truck arrived. This was fortunate, since the local fire department had not recorded my address (sheesh).

Q: Was anyone around when the fire started?

A: I had left the property on Friday around noon. The first report of smoke either came in at 2:45 PM or 3:45 PM (Not sure, there were several reports made to 911). I was notified at 6:00 PM and was back at 7:00 PM. The fire had been extinquished 45 minutes after the fire fighters arrival (Pretty fast really).

Q: Could this have been prevented by storing your biodiesel differently.

A: No, the building could have been completely empty, it would still burned to the ground.

--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com
503-317-4564

ok so polly tanks are bad but now hows about my methanl carboys they are polly also. should we be looking to get our alcohol in metal cans or what? im thinkinm my methanol is more of a prob than my plastic tank with only ssimple biod in side. if my meht bottle melts then thats a big runaway fast incident no? so you say i must stor my meth somewhere else but what if tyhat building has the fire themn my meth makes the same kaboom. i cant handle a metal drum of meth it is way tooo big for me tto move on my own so its small platic carboys and enough of them to be economicv. i guess i am the same as other bio dudes with only averige strength and transport for my meth in plastic bottles. maybe i should just keep it outdoors but then i know what i get punks messing with it and a whole new mess of probs.

Any bulk methanol storage should be in a steel drum. I don't keep methanol for more than 24 hours in a plastic carboy -- it goes into making bio too fast.

So .... now that I have the general questions out of the way, I figure everyone wants to know how this is being viewed by the media and community.

The night of the fire I had 2 news stations, one broadcast a brief description of the blaze. The other station interviewed the fire marshal and myself.

Before I let the media proceed I talked with them about the misconceptions that could be formed by the community. Long story short, I felt the news channels (especially KOIN-6 [CBS]) did an excellent job of promoting the positive aspects of biodiesel and helped downplay any involvement biodiesel in starting the fire. So from the TV aspect, I think it went well. I also called several people who are not biofuel-educated and asked what they thought of the broadcast. The viewers I talked with felt biodiesel was positive and were all pleasantly surprised with the lack of environmental consequences due to spills and the safety of the fuel endorsed by the Fire Marshall in the broadcast.

So then there were the newspapers. Out of the 6 newspapers that posted stories, only the Portland Tribune, Oregonian, and Portland Business Journal contacted me directly. The Oregonian was the only paper interested in "promoting fear" (my opinion).

I tried to set the reporter straight, informing her that the fire was not the result of biodiesel in any way. The pressing issue was the storage and manufacture of the biodiesel in the home and if the average citizen should be required to register hazardous materials. I think the reporter was quite shocked to find out from the USDA that the average farm has 500-2000 gallons of fuel stored right next to their barn or house, and that most older homes in Portland have gravity fed basement oil heating with over 400 gallons of heating oil ready to come pouring into your basement.

Personally I think we should all inform our local fire department, why not? Perhaps you think they'll try to shut you down? My fire Marshall is quite supportive though, and I think most would be if you took the effort to talk to them.

Then I had the some individuals show up from State Fire Marshall Office representing The Department of Homeland Security and the State Police. They came because of all the inquiries the Oregonian was throwing out to just about every agency you could imagine. In the end both of the officers, once educated about biodiesel and its properties, were quite supportive. One officer went as far as saying that it sounds like the perfect fuel for both safety and environmental impact from storage, usage, and accidental spilling. They also left me with the a brochure that I had been looking for that described who to contact for registering your hazardous materials. They apologized that the information was not easier to find. I referred them to the excellent example that the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality had posted on their website about biodiesel, underground tanks, and where to send inquiries for more information. I also sent the officers MSDS's on Biodiesel, Methanol, Glycerin, Sulfuric Acid, as well as Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide. As well as the DOT classifications for Recycled Veg oil and Biodiesel.

All in all, 250 gallons of finished home brew burned as well as 150 gal of SoyPower. I had another 275gal tote in the back of my truck full of veg oil from the Portland co-op. This tote deformed and ballooned out and spilled about 50 gal of veg oil.

The temperature of the office was somewhere between 1300-1400F and temp inside the rest of the building was measured at 900-1000F on the ceiling and 300-500F on the floor. There was 8 55gal barrels of Methanol on site, but stored in the opposite building. There was over 400gal of glycerin stored in the building along with another 550 gal of biodiesel in drums.

The fire Marshall was impressed with several 5 gallon buckets on the floor near the office that didn't ignite.

So ... what equipment did I lose ....

Well I lost my HP 5890 Series II Gas Chromatography, this is a shame, because I was doing free testing for homebrewers.

I also lost my brand new Shimadzu Infrared Spectrophotometer along with the spendy salt plates I purchased to do real time reactor analysis.

I lost most of of 3.5kW solar array that provided all of the power needed to process around 400 gal / day. This really sucks, as the panels were hand selected by myself, and were matched for minimal series loss.

I lost alot of computers, servers, switches, routers, and related computer equipment along with my massive white boards.

I also lost alot of solar equipment I was planning to use in the near future, one fronius IG3000 inverter, two Xantrex GT3.0 inverters, 4 Trace Engineering OK4U inverters, 3 BZ products MPPT500 charge controllers, 2 BZ products MPPT250 charge controllers, a Trace C40 charge controller, multiple junction boxes, fuse holders, fuses, tons and tons of wiring and connectors, the list just goes on and on.

So the bottom line ...

It will take $14-18K to rebuild the building.

Another $5-8K to replace the GC (maybe less, depending on eBay)

Like who knows how much ... $10-15K to replace the IR Spectrophotometer.

Another $5-6K to replace the computers, servers, networking.

And about $6K to rebuild the biodiesel processor and wash tank.

Oh and someone mentioned something about the fill-rite pumps. Well both had alot of soot on them, but I have one working now, no problems yet.

So .... if anyone has any ideas as to how to cut costs on any of these items, especially with pole building construction, GC, IR, etc. Let me know.

And yes I had insurance, of course there is additional coverage for farming, which the insurance company is trying to say covers the building as a farm structure and not a private structure. Of course the farm coverage doesn't count, because we don't raise crops or livestock. Try explaining this to your adjuster, ha!

My attorney and I feel things should work out. If they don't, you might see me taking donations and selling soap


--
Jeff Brandt
Sun Break Biofuels, LLC
jeffb at sunbreakbiofuels.com
503-317-4564

Jeff,

What lessons learned would you be willing to pass along?

Will you be locating the processor/plant in a separate building from the office and CG? Will continue to use the poly totes?

In general what would you do differently the next time?