I am about to load my new reactor with water to see how much the water heater really holds.
Is it better to mark the volume on the reactor in liters or gallons and why?

Liters - because your catalyst and methanol calculations will be easier if you are all metric.

How will you drain the water? Better load it with oil and avoid a mess for a first batch...

Being that I was raised on the metric system, I agree with Andrew 100%. Making your calculations in liters and kilos (or grams) is gonna make your life much easier. However, that will be true if you're familiar with it. If not, I'd advise you to go with what you know, or , if you can, try to learn it.

Thanks!
I think Metric it is then. That is what I used in College Chemistry. Should not be an issue picking it back up.

Good question about using Oil vs Water to get a reading. I just scored a source, but I do have that much oil yet. Is it that hard to remove all the water?

quote:

Is it that hard to remove all the water?

No. If you have enough oil, there's no reason to use water. It just adds an unneeded complication.
But if you don't have enough oil, you can do it with water. Then, after draining the water, put the oil you have in, circulate it and dewater it, so you can be sure there's no water left inside.

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:

quote:

Is it that hard to remove all the water?

No. If you have enough oil, there's no reason to use water. It just adds an unneeded complication.
But if you don't have enough oil, you can do it with water. Then, after draining the water, put the oil you have in, circulate it and dewater it, so you can be sure there's no water left inside.

The problem is the water cannot be completely drained. All water heaters, even turnovers, will retain some fluid when drained. For the case of a regular heater, there is nearly a gallon left. It's not a problem for glycerol because it all gets pushed out with the first 5 gallons of bio flushed.

So unless you can calibrate with water, then turn the heater over afterwards and blow it out with compressed air, you will keep water in to contaminate your first batch.

Sounds like a total hassle. Just fill it with oil and mark graduations on as you go. I've done this a few times now -- just fill your reactor with oil and drain it to get oil in the undrainable parts, then meter in the oil to mark the graduations. You first batch will have more oil in it than you measure, but all subsequent batches will be exact.

It is a good idea to take measurements from a solid surface that isn't going to change. Do that as you fill and write them down such as 25 inches equals 140 liters, ect. Markings have a habit of going away but you can put them back on your sight tube from your recorded sheet.

Ufo: it's not my intention to create a confrontation.

You're right: the best way to do it is with oil. But when you don't have the oil, you don't have it, so you can either get more oil (if you can, or are willing to), or go for the next best thing.
Besides that, it's not true that you can't fully drain the water out of a reactor. Unless they're dewatering the oil in a separate vessel, most people put oil and water in their reactors every time, and then get rid of the water. If you read carefully my prior post you'll see that's exactly what I suggested.

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:
Ufo: it's not my intention to create a confrontation.

You're right: the best way to do it is with oil. But when you don't have the oil, you don't have it, so you can either get more oil (if you can, or are willing to), or go for the next best thing.
Besides that, it's not true that you can't fully drain the water out of a reactor. Unless they're dewatering the oil in a separate vessel, most people put oil and water in their reactors every time, and then get rid of the water. If you read carefully my prior post you'll see that's exactly what I suggested.

OK, if you don't have the oil, why would you need to graduate it that high? Just askin'. Some oil may have a little suspended water in it, but we are talking about adding a large quantity of water that is not necessary.

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if you don't have the oil, why would you need to graduate it that high?

It's not our place to decide that. GreenHasher asked a very specific question. Whether he needs to graduate it or not is his problem.
Th quantity of water is unimportant. If you can deal with a drop, you can deal with any quantity.

Anyways, I'm not interested in engaging in an endless debate. Both our viewpoints have been explained. It's up to him to make a decision.

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:

quote:

if you don't have the oil, why would you need to graduate it that high?

It's not our place to decide that. GreenHasher asked a very specific question. Whether he needs to graduate it or not is his problem.
Th quantity of water is unimportant. If you can deal with a drop, you can deal with any quantity.

Anyways, I'm not interested in engaging in an endless debate. Both our viewpoints have been explained. It's up to him to make a decision.

I mostly agree. If you need to find out how much total volume the heater contains, any liquid will do. But getting the water out is an issue and a hassle. One drop is of no consequence, but to leave a gallon of water in oil you want to make fuel out of is not "unimportant". It's a PITA. Either you end up with 5-10 gallons of oil with a bunch of water in it after heating and settling, or you process it and end up with a bunch of soap. Or both.

But GreenHasher, if you have some glycerol, pump that in to absorb the water, and maybe the leftover glycerol will not mess with your first biodiesel batch.

quote:

One drop is of no consequence, but to leave a gallon of water in oil you want to make fuel out of is not "unimportant". It's a PITA.

If you end up with a gallon of water (or any other liquid) after draining your tank, you really need to rethink your design. Furthermore, if after adding, circulating and dewatering oil, you're still left with a gallon of water, then you're doing something VERY WRONG.

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:

quote:

One drop is of no consequence, but to leave a gallon of water in oil you want to make fuel out of is not "unimportant". It's a PITA.

If you end up with a gallon of water (or any other liquid) after draining your tank, you really need to rethink your design. Furthermore, if after adding, circulating and dewatering oil, you're still left with a gallon of water, then you're doing something VERY WRONG.

It sounds like you've not made a processor from a hot water heater. There is a lot of fluid left in it when you "drain" it using the drain port. The bottom is an inverted cone with the port high enough inside to have threads clear all around it. That ring, about 1" deep all the way around, could easily be a gallon or more depending on the size of the unit.

quote:

It sounds like you've not made a processor from a hot water heater.

Well, it sounds to me like you're begging for the wolf to eat you.
But you're right: I've never made a reactor from a water heater.
But I did toy with the idea long enough to know that to solve the problem with the concave bottom you just have to turn it upside down, and use the convex top as the bottom. Hardly a difficult thing to do.

I have an appleseed....don't use water...it ain't pretty the first time you put your oil in you'll have a caramel shake....

You can do this even the first time you load oil.

1) start pumping oil in until you begin seeing it in the sight glass...then stop pumping.
2) Find pail with graduations marked on it (Lowes) in Liters.
3) Drain into bucket and determine volume.
4) Fill back up to halfway up the sight glass.
5) Make a temporary mark,
6) Drain 20 liters,
7) make a temporary mark
8) Measure between the marks in cm. For example 15cm
9) Use the bottom of the sight glass as the starting point and mark up the sight glass the distance you measured between the two temporary points. (i.e. 15cm for my example)

So, if it took 20 liters before oil showed up in sight glass then every every 15cm (for example) is another 20 liters. Measure and make your marks.

quote:

Originally posted by bernyjb:

quote:

It sounds like you've not made a processor from a hot water heater.

Well, it sounds to me like you're begging for the wolf to eat you.
But you're right: I've never made a reactor from a water heater.
But I did toy with the idea long enough to know that to solve the problem with the concave bottom you just have to turn it upside down, and use the convex top as the bottom. Hardly a difficult thing to do.

Not sure I understand that comment. What do you mean? You were the person that posted this, right? "Ufo: it's not my intention to create a confrontation." I'm sure this still stands?

And of course I know about the turnover, I've made and currently use one. It's very nice to get 99% of the glycerol out instead of 90%, making washing much easier.

(apologies to the OP for the diversion)

I thought for appleseed processors you turned the heater upside down for better drainage. You don't even need to fill the thing, just use math. If you can gauge the true diameter use this formula. 3.14 X radius X radius X height(all in inches) divided by 61. This will give you the volume in liters. One liter is 61 cubic inches. I used this formula to calculate my drum volume. My 55 gal. drums hold 5gallons every 3 inches.

Another consideration is temperature. I've seen the sight tube level on a fixed amount of oil vary as much as 1" from 60*F to 80*F. Absolute precision is difficult to achieve and ultimately is irrelevant. If you are within a couple of gallons of your target batch size, and you allow for margin when you measure your alcohol and lye, you will be fine.

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I thought for appleseed processors you turned the heater upside down for better drainage.

Some yes, more no.

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You don't even need to fill the thing, just use math. If you can gauge the true diameter use this formula. 3.14 X radius X radius X height(all in inches) divided by 61. This will give you the volume in liters. One liter is 61 cubic inches. I used this formula to calculate my drum volume. My 55 gal. drums hold 5gallons every 3 inches.

Since it is a water heater, the exact dimensions are concealed by the skin and insulation around the tank. Estimating will yield poor results if you intend to cut the margins down on methanol.

Regarding heat, I suggest that you measure the volume of the oil at close to the same temp. as you measure the volume of the methanol.