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Automatic fire supression
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Been looking around. I've found that automatic foam fire extinguishers triggered by smoke detectors exist. I've not found one yet.
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are many different brands of smoke detectors out their that have external relays or dry contacts built rite in. These can be used to trigger anything that you want. We used to install them in telecommunication rooms to trigger an external alarm and release the Halon (now banned in Canada) The ones we used I think were made by Nutone and we called the external relay a "relay in a bag" as it was a small relay encapsulated in a hard plastic bag with the leads hanging out, this would fit in the electrical box under the detector. This could open a solenoid or trigger an alarm or both but remember smokys are prone to false alarms... I think a heat detector may be more appropriate and they are also readily available in different temp ratings.
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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For those in the UK here is a site that has 4 automatic extinguishers to choose from.

Hugh
 
Registered: March 07, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have been speaking with a few more firefighters about this. It seems that they all agree that whatever supression is used, it needs to be sized to the square footage of any fire that may be expected. Obviously, if the fluid hits the floor and spreads, there would be more square footage, and needs more product to put it out. Where, if its contained to the pump, or surrounding wall; if it could be caught in time, it would be far easier to put out. I emailed some links to 2 of them, and they agreed that for what we are doing, and if the processor tanks and lines are themselves not flammable, that the larger system that Ryan linked to would go a longggg way in keeping damage to a minimum on an unattended fire.
They also mentioned that the space of the building would need to factored in when installing. The higher its installed, and the bigger the building, the longer it would take the heat to set it off. My ceiling height on the barn is 14ft, so Im going to drop some framing down to where the sprinkler head is 4ft above the highest point of the processor. High enough not to have any accidental discharges, but as low as I think I can go to get any fire put out pronto. Now I just need more work so I can order this thing
ON EDIT: I DO NOT PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT AND ASSUME NO RESPONSABILITY
JUST GOOD OLD FASHION COMMON SENSE
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dear Hook,

A tall ceiling can present a challenge for heat activated stuff. You face a dilemma.

1. If you mount your stuff on a high ceiling, it takes longer for the heat to make it up there and activate your sensor device, compared to a low ceiling. But...

2. Hot air rises. If you mount your sensor below ceiling height, the hot air works like water filling an "upside down" pan, which is your ceiling. So putting framing in to lower the device may actually take longer to activate than on the ceiling, because the room fills with hot air from the top down. Unless, of course, you make a little "box" around your fire supression equipment that catches and fills with hot air first, before spilling over to the larger ceiling.

Clear as mud?

Hope that helps, and thanks for starting this thread.

troy
 
Location: north america somewhere close to the midwest, or not | Registered: May 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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troy, I fully understand what you are saying.
Here's another problem for me...rafter height is 14 ft....open from rafters to tin roof...so at the peak its 28ft tall,and all open Big Grin
Looks like I will building a box around this thing.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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oh oh oh...even better!
make the processor area a room in the barn..easy enough to do!plenty of space.
10 ft ceilings, doubled up 1/2 inch drywall for a firewall..man oh man...I got some more projects now! Wink
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is what I plan to use.


-----------------------------------
Just purchased 2/1/08, 1985 F-250 2wd 6.9 IDI C6 Auto 186k $400 at auction. Was running my B100 in my fathers 1995 F250 PowerStroke, with >215,000 miles, on truck. So far, only about 500 on bio, but no problems yet.
Lost my oil supply at the end of 2007, now gearing up to grow my own.
 
Location: Crete, Nebraska | Registered: November 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hooknline:
oh oh oh...even better!
make the processor area a room in the barn..easy enough to do!plenty of space.
10 ft ceilings, doubled up 1/2 inch drywall for a firewall..man oh man...I got some more projects now! Wink

That is probably the best idea!
I plan to build a short wall in the section of my shed where my set up is with a large Plexiglas window and a door. My electrical control panel will be on the opposite side of the wall thus removing the arching sparking stuff from the hazardous area. All that's required then is a classified immersion heater and a TEFC (totally enclosed fan cooled) motor for the pump, proper wiring methods and you could probably pass any wiring inspection for a Class I div II hazardous area.
This is a common technique in the industry used to save allot of money on explosion proof controls...

Best regards,
Jon
EDIT:
In Canada a double layer of 5/8" drywall is code for a fire separation, supposed to be a 1 Hour rating I believe...
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One thing to keep in mind that a TEFC motor is not the same as an explosion proof motor. Standard TEFC motors are not necessarily air tight and can allow vapors to enter the motor housing.

Explosion proof motors are a type of TEFC motor.


-Ian
"Don't complain about farmers with your mouth full."
"Arguing with a government inspector is like wrestling with the pig. You both get dirty but after a while you realize the pig enjoys it".

 
Location: Trapped in a world before later on | Registered: November 13, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi BeanCrusher,
I really enjoyed your article in the last Biodieselsmarter mag!
Just an FYI.
TEFC motors are not required to be sealed in class I Div II areas providing they do not incorporate any arcing or sparking apparatus like a centrifugal start switch or an internal overload. Standard off the shelf TEFC squirrel cage induction motors are acceptable in class I div II areas provided the above is true.
Here is a snippet from the CEC see sub (2):

quote:
Δ 18-168 Motors and Generators, Class I, Zone 2 (see Appendix B )

(1) Motors, generators, and other rotating electrical machines that incorporate arcing, sparking, or heat-producing resistance components shall be explosion-proof or flameproof unless these arcing, sparking, heat-producing components are provided with enclosures that comply with the requirements of Rule 18-100 .

(2) Motors, generators, and other rotating electrical machines that do not incorporate arcing, sparking, or heat-producing components shall be permitted to be of the open or non-explosion- proof type.

Typically if the motor is not rated it also will not have a T code so the code says to treat it as 100C. (See earlier posts I made in a different thread describing how overload protection for motors must not allow the frame to rise above 90C).
Best regards,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RedLance,
anything that is done will help, but keep in mind that the unit in the pictures is awfully small, and will probably exhaust its contents in 2 seconds flat.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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hooknline;

Yeah, I did think of that. I also have a dry chemical ABC hand held extinguisher just inside the shed door.

I got this automatic unit for only about $20, so I figured it could be the first line, buying me some time to get to the hand held, and/or let the trucks get to me.

FWIW, I also have no plastic piping under pressure (except for the static mixer)and I don't use an HF pump. My pump has a higher quality motor with a thermal cutoff. And I keep my methanol outside the shed.


-----------------------------------
Just purchased 2/1/08, 1985 F-250 2wd 6.9 IDI C6 Auto 186k $400 at auction. Was running my B100 in my fathers 1995 F250 PowerStroke, with >215,000 miles, on truck. So far, only about 500 on bio, but no problems yet.
Lost my oil supply at the end of 2007, now gearing up to grow my own.
 
Location: Crete, Nebraska | Registered: November 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sounds like you have your goals covered then Smile
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
Hi BeanCrusher,
I really enjoyed your article in the last Biodieselsmarter mag!

Credit to Bob and Frankie to get something worthwhile out of my blathering on....

quote:

Just an FYI.
TEFC motors are not required to be sealed in class I Div II areas providing they do not incorporate any arcing or sparking apparatus like a centrifugal start switch or an internal overload. Standard off the shelf TEFC squirrel cage induction motors are acceptable in class I div II areas provided the above is true.

Thank you for enlightening me....now where is my engineer.....


-Ian
"Don't complain about farmers with your mouth full."
"Arguing with a government inspector is like wrestling with the pig. You both get dirty but after a while you realize the pig enjoys it".

 
Location: Trapped in a world before later on | Registered: November 13, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Thank you for enlightening me....now where is my engineer.....

I hear ya!
I find that the area classification and subsequent installation and costs have allot more to do with the common sense and experience of the engineer and not so much to do with the actual hazards of the area.
Good experienced engineers in this business seem to be as rare as hens teeth up here anymore. Roll Eyes Its unfortunate because they can be the difference between a business starting or being mothballed rite from the beginning...
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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just a quick bump. I ordered the system today, linked here: extinguisher
The larger one. Should be here in a week or so and I will post up my thoughts on it once it gets in. Hopefully I never get to see it in action.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by medicdubs:
Another point, Ryan brought up was classes of fires. If you have a class "C" fire and disconnect the power or switch off the breaker it's now a class "A". That should be the first thing you do if at all possible.

That is a good point.

While you might not want to dump foam and chemicals with every puff of smoke that might set off the smoke detector, it might not be bad to wire a relay or cutoff switch into the smoke detectors so that when a smoke detector goes off, then it immediately de-energizes your entire system (until you manually reset it.

Perhaps you could do both heat activated and smoke (or Carbon Monoxide) activated.

Also add some kind of a signal for you to check your system if the smoke detector goes off.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Just had a thought today.

If you are pressurizing the system. I'm not sure how much propellant (air) and how much fire suppressant you will go out the nozzle.

However, you might consider pressurizing with Carbon Dioxide CO2.

That way your propellant would also suppress the fire.

And, if you have everything dry to start with (Dry CO2, Dry chemicals, etc)... you wouldn't have to worry about moisture getting inside of a pressurized sealed system.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ok, I got the package today. first impressions:
small, but extremely heavy! I cant believe how heavy it is for something half the size of a regular propane tank. The mounting bracket is cheaply made but adequate.
Overall, I am comfortable with the unit, but not so comfy I will take unnecessary risks now that its installed. Install was easy enough.
To the point, I would say it suits my needs, but hope to never find out.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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