BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





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quote:
The batteries end up costing more than the power, and often aren't factored into cost or environmental comparisons.


Very true batteries contain some pretty nasty stuff and a lot of energy is consumed in manufacture. There are a lot of misconceptions out there. Solar cells considered the fix for everything, consume up to a megawatt/hour of energy to manufacture per square meter.
That's about 2 years output.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Dolomiite was never imported here. TR7's are dirt cheap because most never had their valves adjusted and burned one at 40,000 miles. Members of the Triumph club don't consider '7's to be real Triumphs. That's why I've got 4 of them, including one with a Volvo B20 engine and P1800 overdrive tranny. It's got very long legs. It'd also be perfect for a low revving diesel, if I could find one that would fit. Too bad Peugeot 505 turbodiesel engines are so hard to find here - it needs a slant-4. Electric is easier, and will frankly cost less to own.


Yeah really you are right I have had a few triumphs, Herald Spitfire TR4A and a 2500PI so I am fond of them, and even I have to admit the TR7 was the worst car they built. In England they were cutting the roof off and putting V8's in them because the engine wasn't much and they looked a bit better without the roof.
The Volvo is a good solid motor so is the Peugeot. I wanted a 504 or 505 diesel but couldn't find one either.
So I settled on an old Merc.
I have been looking at Peugeot 405's you can get diesel versions here.
I am not to sure about a front wheel drive though. I sometimes drive my sons Alfa33 and it is very different when cornering hard.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sinbad,

Bought a turbo Diesel Peugeot 306 a couple of month ago. Worst car I have ever had. I had great respect for the XUB engine, but this car is nothing but problems. The turbo waste-gate seems to be sticking once it gets warm, very difficult to drive smoothly. It just sits there at low revs, no bottom end pulling power. Also very cold-smoky and the temp guage hardly moves (suspect thermostat, must change it). And so the list goes on.

I really need to do a lot on this engine.

Very disappointing buy.


dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by dva:
Sinbad,

Bought a turbo Diesel Peugeot 306 a couple of month ago. Worst car I have ever had. I had great respect for the XUB engine, but this car is nothing but problems. The turbo waste-gate seems to be sticking once it gets warm, very difficult to drive smoothly. It just sits there at low revs, no bottom end pulling power. Also very cold-smoky and the temp guage hardly moves (suspect thermostat, must change it). And so the list goes on.

I really need to do a lot on this engine.

Very disappointing buy.


dva


I have a couple of friends with 3 Pugs between them. The problems they have had have been minimal. Do you think its possible the particular car you have is bad or are you concluding they are all the same as yours?
 
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DCS,

No, I know it is just a bad example. I also have a Citroen ZX with essentially the same engine but none-turbo. This was a great car that just eventually caught the rust bug. I have also run Citroen BX cars and a Talbot Horizon, all with a variation of the XUD engine.
Looking around the web it does appear that the turbo 306 is a bit notorious for turbo lag, but mine gives all the symptoms of sticking waste-gate.
I intend to sort out the problems when the weather improves. I could, I suppose, swap the BX engine into it.

dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Johno I'd been interested in all you can send me about your tr7 electric conversion. I'm contemplating an electric conversion and may use a tr7 as a donor car. I'm at tonyfam13@yahoo.com

quote:
Originally posted by johno:
I'm converting a TR7 to electric as a commute vehicle. It's daily commute cost works out to just $1.60usd thusly:
Batteries: 14 x $60ea = $840
4 years commuting = 1000 cycles = $0.84/commute
Electricity: 16.8KWH @0.045 = $0.756/commute
Total cost per day = $1.596usd.

I only get to pay half the electricity - my boss has agreed to let me recharge at work. This is also good for the battery pack.
This compares favorably with my present gasoline commute cost ($3.56/day at $1.629/gal x 2.19 gal) or my biodiesel cost ($1.50/day at $0.75/gal x 2.0 gal). I'm lucky enough to live in a hydroelectric generating region with inexpensive electricity. Cost of converting the vehicle has been about the same as rebuilding the engine ($1400). You'd think such regions would have the most electric vehicle use, yet we have NONE. We also grow and export Canola and Sunflower seed to Canada, then import fuel oil from the Alaska north slope. Ain't economics amazing?

Other vehicle operating expenses are assumed on par, though rebuilding the electric "engine" is significantly cheaper. Note also no oil changes and other reduced operating expenses. The batteries are worth $10ea in exchange for new ones, which also helps offset some more of the expense.


anthonu j famiglietti
 
Location: Trumansburg ny | Registered: September 05, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Johno,

How's the electric TR7 coming along ?

dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry for the long silence - grad school has eaten my brain. The TR7 is no closer to the road, but there has been progress of a sort. Lithium batteries are now cheap enough to be a reasonable option, and MUCH lighter weight. A 14kwhr Thundersky battery pack will cost about $3500, plus charger and regulator circuit will push the cost towards $5000. In electric vehicle service (discharging to 20%) they claim 2000-3000 cycles. The 'pack would weigh just 480 pounds, vs 1600+ for lead-acid. I'll post the economics later, but the break-even point happens pretty quick at $3/gallon gas vs 4-cent/kwhr electricity and a 70-mile daily round trip.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Johno,

Thanks for that. Look forward to seeing your economic breakdown so I can compare my situation to it.

dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Electric TR7 economics:
assumptions first - 1/3 kwh per mile, 500# max battery pack weight, 84 volt pack, at least 100,000 mile life. No special deals on battery purchase. No miraculous efficiencies claimed. Rebuild of the gas engine is assumed to be un-necessary. Cost of battery charger and controller is ignored, assuming they are durable and last the life of the vehicle, like the engine. No compensation for future fuel and electricity changes are made. That leaves the batteries, electricity, gas, oil, filters and tuneup parts as the only unique consumables to evaluate:
Gas = $3.50/gallon
Electricity = $0.04/kwh
Homebrewed biodiesel = $1.15/gallon
Commercial biodiesel = $4.00/gallon
Oil changes = $25 each, every 3333 miles
Gas engine Tuneups = $35 each, every 10,000 miles

Thundersky batteries are offered in a variety of sizes. I have a 32 mile drive to work, but the cost per kwh drops as battery size increases, so a "50 mile" pack is my current baseline. That means I need 16.8 kwh. At 3.2 volts per battery, that's 26 batteries. Alliance sells 200 AH cells for $215, FOB China, so the pack will cost $5590, plus shipping. Note that this is a bigger, more expensive pack than in my earlier posting.

Cost to recharge for 50 miles, at $0.04/kwh, 50% efficiency = $1.34 ($0.0268/mile)
Electricity Cost to drive 100,000 miles = $2680
note that this would only be 2000 cycles, and the batteries are advertised as capable of 3000-5000 cycles.
Total cost to drive 100,000 miles = $2680 + $5590 = $8270 ($0.083/mi)

compare to gas:
assumptions - 30 mpg, $3.50/gallon, oil changes every 3333 miles, tuneups every 10,000 miles, no other unique expenses over 100,000 mile life.
Gas Cost for 50 miles = $5.83 ($0.117/mi)
30 oil changes at $25 = $750
10 tuneups at $35 = $350
Total Cost to drive 100,000 miles = $12,767 ($0.128/mi)

Difference = $4497
So, here's the question - can I convert the vehicle for less than $4497. That would need to cover the cost of the charger, battery control system, electric motor, controller, instrumentation, etc. The short answer is yes, easily, but that's because I'm already most of the way there. The car already has the 48 hp electric motor installed, and has an 84-volt, 300 amp Curtis Regen-controller. What it lacks is the batteries and battery management system (charger and charge controller), and some more instrumentation.

Just for yucks, I could convert a TR7 to biodiesel, using a VW 1.6 turbodiesel engine. If it got 45 mpg (like my Jetta), then the costs go like this:
Homebrewed fuel cost for 50 mile = $1.15/gallon (my current cost)/45X50 = $1.28
Conversion cost = $3000 (engine) + $1000 (adapter, misc) = $4000
Fuel Cost to drive 100,000 miles = $2556
Oil changes = $750
Cost to drive 100,000 miles = $7306 ($0.073/mi)

Or I could just drive my Jetta:
Fuel cost to drive 100,000 miles = $2556
Oil changes = $750
no conversion cost, and I'll assume no rebuild necessary
Cost to drive another 100,000 miles = $3306 ($0.033/mi)
If I rebuld the engine ($2000), then the cost jumps to $4306 ($0.043/mi)

Conclusion - gas is out of the question, at $0.128/mile. Lithium batteries are a practical option, at $0.083/mile, to gas, but more expensive than homebrewing biodiesel, at $0.073/mile. The rational thing to do is to rebuild the Jetta engine and keep driving it, for just $0.043/mile. However, if I have the option to buy fuel, rather than spending so much time making it, and assuming it costs $4/gallon, then the biodiesel option becomes more expensive than electric:
Fuel cost to drive 100,000 miles at 45 mpg = $8889
Oil changes = $750
Rebuild = $2000
Cost to drive 100,000 miles = $11,639 ($0.116/mile), not much better than gas, so the decision goes back to converting the TR7 to lithium batteries and cheap hydropower or surplus home-solar power.

Besides, an electric TR7 would just be cool to drive.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by johno:
note that this would only be 2000 cycles, and the batteries are advertised as capable of 3000-5000 cycles.
Total cost to drive 100,000 miles = $2680 + $5590 = $8270 ($0.083/mi)

You didn't add a battery shipping estimate (both on the boat and after they get to the US) in those figures, and that can be a large amount, $1000's.

I doubt they will last this many cycles. Please link to any info showing they last this long at high discharge current as in a vehicle. The 3000 cycle life they quote is only at low current. There are reports from users they last <2000 cycles in vehicle use. I have lots of practical experience with many different battery types since for years I drove several electric cars I built, and have powered my house for >20 years with solar charged batteries. They are always the weak link and never meet the makers specs. So I am always searching for better batteries.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SunWizard - I too am a bit skeptical about manufacturer's claims, especially when it's a Chinese company selling stuff in the US. That's part of the reason I'm basing my assumptions on reduced life of 2000 cycles, vs the claim of 3000-5000. My controller is limited to 300 amps, making the battery pack peak discharge rate only 1.5CA, although they are rated for 3.0CA continuous, and 10CA peak, according to their advertising claims. Thundersky has plenty of controversy associated with it on some web sites, but the worst accusations are found on sites that just happen to offer alternative batteries for sale.
I only know two people using ThunderSky batteries. Neither has had any problem, but neither has many miles or cycles yet. The ThunderSky batteries have been used in Chinese EV's for several years now, but I've found no reports on their performance, other than wonderful claims of great success by the manufacturer.
Will I get 2000 cycles from Thundersky's with my particular vehicle/controller/driving style? I hope so, but I'm continuing to do my research before committing to a purchase.
The estimate I was give for shipping was $312, to my door. It wasn't a firm quotation, but compares pretty well with other orders the company I work for has received from China. The batteries are also in-stock, at somewhat higher prices, in the state.
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by johno:
SunWizard - I too am a bit skeptical about manufacturer's claims, especially when it's a Chinese company selling stuff in the US. That's part of the reason I'm basing my assumptions on reduced life of 2000 cycles, vs the claim of 3000-5000. My controller is limited to 300 amps, making the battery pack peak discharge rate only 1.5CA, although they are rated for 3.0CA continuous, and 10CA peak, according to their advertising claims.

Then you have seen that their claim of 3000 cycles is based on 0.5 CA max. rate, you are going to be triple that. As the amp rate goes up, the cycle life goes down exponentially, which is a big drawback. Also at higher amp rates, you have to lower their amp hour capacity. They will usually be around half the rated capacity at the amp rates a vehicle uses. So that means you may need a much bigger bank than you have calculated to get 50 mile range.

For example, my car which is super lightweight, using a good high efficiency controller and motor, using a 440 AH bank of batteries gets around 50 mile range.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SunWizard - thanks for pointing that out. I've now downloaded the data sheet. I'd conflated the "Rated Discharge" (3.0CA), and the Degree of Discharge (80%) to equal or exceed 3000 cycles, and didn't notice the Charge/Discharge Rate for 3000 cycles (0.3 CA, not even 0.5!). That pretty well rules out ThunderSky batteries.

I'm anxious to know more about your EV.

Cheers,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
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On the cost per mile equation, what about Blended WVO?
That should be doable for less than Bio.
If you could find a source of drained turbine fuel or Home heating oil or the like, the cost could be very minimal.
Even blending with bio would be practical and cheap.
 
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Blended WVO could also reduce the cost per mile. In fact, a little over half my miles are on SVO, which I figure is costing me $0.65/gallon. I hesitate to add more detail to the calculations, but it should be obvious that there are many ways to reduce costs. One of the simplest ways to halve your effective cost per mile is to carry a passenger and split the cost. That's the basis of public transportation, if you take the concept far enough. Trying to figure ways to keep single drivers in individual cars is great for the car makers and oil companies, but bad for almost everyone else. EV's are one way to reduce the impact of single-occupancy vehicles. The hard part is making them affordable for even some of the masses.
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
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Is there greater efficiency and reduced cost in an electric motorcycle?

Don't know how practical they are but you mentioned single driver so that might be something to look at also.

There are also a lot of Diesel bike conversions on the net that get some pretty respectable MPG's!
 
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DCS: yes, there are some great efficiencies possible from an electric motorcycle. There are a few being sold, notably the Brammo Empulse (made in Ashland, Oregon, where I went to school), which has the range (100 mile) and speed (100 mph) sufficient for my commute (32 miles at 55 mph), but I can't quite convince myself to spend nearly $10,000 for one ($9000 + Washington State tax - Federal tax credit).
Regarding electric motorcycles; in addition to the uncompleted electric TR7, I've also got an uncompleted diesel Moto Guzzi Convert. I'd nearly stopped riding my gas motorcycle to work because my biodiesel truck was less expensive. A diesel bike was the obvious solution. I've machined the adapter to join the 3-cylinder Daihatsu diesel engine to the Convert torque converter, but have not yet cut the frame for the rest of the modification. I need to finish school before embarking on another big project.
An electric car would be handier than an electric motorcycle, and would carry the battery pack easier. Here in eastern Washington we have cold winters that don't suit motorcycles for nearly half the year. For that matter, weather doesn't suit a TR7 for a month or two in mid-winter. Once the snow gets more than a few inches deep, I need 4wd and lots of clearance. You can see the conundrum - no single vehicle will suit my year-'round needs, although the Jetta and the Mazda pickup come close. Since electricity is made locally, and is the cheapest form of energy available here, it's a shame no one uses it for transportation. I'd like to demonstrate that EV's are practical, but am having difficulty doing so. It's tempting to simply buy a dead pickup truck, mount my electric motor in the front and fill the back with a lead-acid battery pack.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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