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Heating WVO with WVO
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:
Hi George,

WMO can atomize well at 160 degrees. WVO needs to be hotter to atomize as well. If you are using boiler water to heat up your fuel, it can not get any hotter than the boiler water....
Thanks makes since in theory. What I dont know; and you maybe do?, is if they have additional heating options or maybe additional electric heat like a veg therm unit or some other heating unit. Don't know about their injector if it is one that automizes better than most thus not as high a heat is needed... . again maybe that is something you know about.

Reason Im curious is Im needing to know all I can on these and other type of units cause in the next few years I want to try to grow Jathropa and use it in the winters to heat my gym in a warehouse. Since it is used by children it will have to be a commercial product for heating and not something home built.


_________________________
If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT;

But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well.
 
Location: North Tx | Registered: November 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Thanks makes since in theory. What I dont know; and you maybe do?, is if they have additional heating options or maybe additional electric heat like a veg therm unit or some other heating unit. Don't know about their injector if it is one that automizes better than most thus not as high a heat is needed... . again maybe that is something you know about.



Actually George, I've spoken at length with the company and they don't use any electrical heaters at all, but are getting excellent results with ALL waste oils.

I'll PM you some extra details.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by welder:
quote:
Thanks makes since in theory. What I dont know; and you maybe do?, is if they have additional heating options or maybe additional electric heat like a veg therm unit or some other heating unit. Don't know about their injector if it is one that automizes better than most thus not as high a heat is needed... . again maybe that is something you know about.



Actually George, I've spoken at length with the company and they don't use any electrical heaters at all, but are getting excellent results with ALL waste oils.

I'll PM you some extra details.
I too had talked to them extensively but got no details. Things "sounded" good but could not determine if it was a "salesman" making things sound good. Which is why Im still seaking details and not assuming anything. What you PMed me changed nothing so far but thanks. Hopefully you can enlighten us further.


_________________________
If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT;

But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well.
 
Location: North Tx | Registered: November 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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First of all, I was only trying to help you get a proper CSA/UL safet certified that works properly with WVO. Kingbuilt says they work fine with WVO.

Sure they have a vested interest in promoting their units, but so does every other waste oil burner. Should we assume that every manufacturer of every product is lying to boost sales?

Other than the statements by Kingbuilt that their units are CSA/UL safety certified AND burn WVO properly, I don't know what other "details" you were looking for (you didn't specify).

In my PM to you, I told you I as considering selling Kingbuilt products. Since you aren't in my sales area, I have NOTHING to gain financially by promoting their stuff to you. I was only trying to help you get an insurable waste oil burner that won't cause a fire, or leave you liable if one ever happens.

I'm not going to get drawn into an argument here. I'm not Kingbuilt. From what I've read on their site and learned from speaking with their tech department they sell great products.

Again, Kingbuilt divides sales revenue by territory, so I have nothing to gain if you (or anyone reading this thread) were to buy from them. These aren't like FPHEs, CFs or line heaters. I can't just drop ship a 300 lb burner to you inside someone elses sales territory.

I only posted asking for feedback on these units so I could see what experienced people actually thought about Kingbuilt products. Unfortunately, I not too many people responded yet and neither of you mentioned having ever actually used a Kingbuilt, so aside from WVO combustion theory, I'm not much closer to hearing anything solid from people not connected to the manufacturer.

I hope you find what you are looking for.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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wow....... ok.... boy did you take every thing I said totaly wrong... Eek

WAY WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

WAY WAY WRONGGGGGGG!!!! Roll Eyes

jessh take a chill pill Confused

Please stop putting things between the lines of my text cause I aint got a clue where your comming up with what you think I was saying.

I like their products and once again... no matter how you learn more about their product; I truely hope you will let us know the technical aspects that allow them to burn WVO better than others seem to be able too.

Sounds like a truely intresting technical discussion!


_________________________
If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT;

But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well.
 
Location: North Tx | Registered: November 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
wow....... ok.... boy did you take every thing I said totaly wrong...

WAY WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

WAY WAY WRONGGGGGGG!!!!

jessh take a chill pill



Judging from how this compares to what you wrote in your reply to my PM, it looks like some pills might just be in order.

Please remember that you asked me to "enlighten us further". I tried to do that. I told you that Kingbuilt claims their units are CSA/UL approved and burn WVO very well. Other than pricing or sizing, I don't know what other details you might have needed. Again, you never specified what details you wanted, so that makes it hard to help.

You said you too talked with Kingbuilt "extensively but got no details". Their site has plenty of detail and when I called, they filled me in on the rest. I don't know how we got such different results. Maybe you were simply asking them the wrong questions. Whenever I call anyone that makes anything so complicated that I need technical info to clarify things, I ask for the tech department.

Maybe you can find enough info here:

http://www.kingbuilt.com/products.php

They even have a cool little flash media video.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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looking at the site I would guess that the 'details'in question are the kind of physical, technical, construction and operation details that would allow you to see what is being done and how in such a way that you could both evaluate the claims being made for the burner and copy/adapt the methods for your own use.

The kind of stuff that is often missing when you are interfacing with any kind of sales orientated pitch.

This thread is after all primarily aimed at people wanting to build things. Mostly based on mobius's version of the vertical babington or some variant adapted from that.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
looking at the site I would guess that the 'details'in question are the kind of physical, technical, construction and operation details that would allow you to see what is being done and how in such a way that you could both evaluate the claims being made for the burner and copy/adapt the methods for your own use.

The kind of stuff that is often missing when you are interfacing with any kind of sales orientated pitch.

This thread is after all primarily aimed at people wanting to build things. Mostly based on mobius's version of the vertical babington or some variant adapted from that.



What are you talking about Ant? Kingbuilt not only said their units are CSA /UL approved, they said they burn most any used oil, burn cleanly, have a 2 stage burner, and use a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger operating off an internal boiler.

They weren't going to give schematics, flow rates and fuel pressures to "prospective customers" to reverse engineer their stuff. They are out to sell quality burners, not educate the planet on burner theory.

When I called them, they answered all my technical questions.

I'm surprised both of you guys couldn't get the tech details you supposedly wanted.

By the way, I don't sell Kingbuilt, I was only considering it. I therefore have no vested interest in whether or not you understand the tech details of their wares.

Why not pick up a phone before passing judgement?...
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I got some more info from Kingbuilt.

It is listed to UL296 and CSA-B140.2.1 which allows it to be used in a residence with with #1 thru #6 FUEL OILS. Use with waste oils is still governed by the EPA.

It has an aux. electric heater for initial burner startup when the boiler is cold. Boiler should be run at 170 degrees or more.

It is only sold with a boiler or for installation on specific Buderus boiler models. (the boilers need slight modifications)

It will fire at zero to a trace of smoke on 100% veggie oil.

The smallest size is 85,000btu.


Ron
'85 300D
'83 300D
Since '80 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Several generators
Kubota Tractor
 
Location: NY | Registered: November 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ant:
quote:
Make different ones to suit.



Swap out the burner head every time you change fuel? I can't see me doint that. How would you fine tune it?


Nope, I didn't say that; what I meant was to make up different ones as needed to test with. This is purely experimental, remember. As for fine-tuning, it wouldn't be too difficult to vary the height of the jet in a screwed sleeve, as per SU carb design.

quote:

The idea from canolafunola of adjusting the hight of a tube seems more practical to me. Not too hard to do if you think about pipe fittings and how they go together.


I know quite a lot about pipe fittings and how they go together, but I'm always ready to learn more. Anyway, I prefer to go with my own design, but more power to canolafunola with his.

quote:

Fine adjustment of the relationship between the air jet and the level of the pool is one of the requirements of a vertical babington.


Of course, it's not a one-size-fits-all design as it stands, but adjustability can be built into it.


Kilkenny, Ireland.
Turk burner workshop heater using chip fat to heat bulk tank and feed house rads.
 
Registered: June 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeepin, moggin Jessup (coachgeo):
quote:
Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:
Hi George,

WMO can atomize well at 160 degrees. WVO needs to be hotter to atomize as well. If you are using boiler water to heat up your fuel, it can not get any hotter than the boiler water....
Thanks makes since in theory. What I dont know; and you maybe do?, is if they have additional heating options or maybe additional electric heat like a veg therm unit or some other heating unit. Don't know about their injector if it is one that automizes better than most thus not as high a heat is needed... . again maybe that is something you know about.

Reason Im curious is Im needing to know all I can on these and other type of units cause in the next few years I want to try to grow Jathropa and use it in the winters to heat my gym in a warehouse. Since it is used by children it will have to be a commercial product for heating and not something home built.


Hi George,

Kingbuilt does several things that allow WVO combustion at slightly lower temperatures than what most of us have done.

1. they start slightly richer than their running fuel air ratio. (like the choke on a carburated car engine.

2. they are using higher atomizing air pressure and a smaller nozzle to get better atomization but also a longer flame.

3. Their combustion chamber design keeps the base of the flame hotter, improving atomization.

#2 and #3 is why they don't sell just the burner without a boiler.

Also, in general, the higher the firing rate and the larger the combustion chamber the lower the pre-heat temperature needed so the larger commercial units will burn WVO easier than smaller ones.

The additional electric heat is only used for startup when the boiler water is not already hot.


Ron
'85 300D
'83 300D
Since '80 former WVO conversions:
'83 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 Isuzu Pup
'86 Golf
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota engine
Several generators
Kubota Tractor
 
Location: NY | Registered: November 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
What are you talking about Ant? Kingbuilt not only said their units are CSA /UL approved, they said they burn most any used oil, burn cleanly, have a 2 stage burner, and use a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger operating off an internal boiler.

They weren't going to give schematics, flow rates and fuel pressures to "prospective customers" to reverse engineer their stuff. They are out to sell quality burners, not educate the planet on burner theory.

When I called them, they answered all my technical questions.

I'm surprised both of you guys couldn't get the tech details you supposedly wanted.

By the way, I don't sell Kingbuilt, I was only considering it. I therefore have no vested interest in whether or not you understand the tech details of their wares.

Why not pick up a phone before passing judgement?...


I was neither passing judgement nor trying to argue with you. I was simply answering the question you asked. I am in the UK so picking up a phone is not practicable in this case.

I understand why Kingbuilt should want to protect data and sell burners just as I understand why people here would like schematics and enough information to reverse engineer and adapt.

Equally a certain amount of engineering disclosure is needed to evalute the assertions of the company. Sales people are not always careful to be truthful in thier assertions and sometimes have incomplete uderstanding themselves.

In this instance information has come to this thread that supports the credibility of the claims made. That does not mean people were wrong to seek out such details to evaluate the claims for themselves. Or that Kingbuilt were wrong to try and keep as much detail to themselves as practicable. There is not enough information to directly reverse engineer a copy as there is with the airtronic babbington but there is enough to give credence to the claims and food for thought and experiment. A happy compromise from Kingbuilt's perspective. And as much as we can expect to demand even if we would like more.

It is the nature of people in this thread to want to know how things work in as much detail as possible. That is not an attack on you or on Kingbuilt. Its just a fact.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
I know quite a lot about pipe fittings and how they go together, but I'm always ready to learn more. Anyway, I prefer to go with my own design, but more power to canolafunola with his.


Indeed I agree that you should both pursue your designs and see what can be done.

My immediate concerns with the proposed size of your design was the large fuel pool which could result in a large pool fire. I can see no advantage in making the pool larger than needed to keep the level steady against fuel usage.

You are right about the screwed jet adjustment, it could be done that way. I see the advantage of adjusting the level of the pool instead of the level of the jet to be that it could be done whilst the air was flowing and the atomising of the fuel directly observed during adjustment. No fingers in fuel spray during adjustment. That dynamic observation would make it easier to find the sweet spot for a given fuel mixture.

There are ethical reasons why I can't discuss the exact method I am thinking about. I have seen it in murphy's plans and it is the one bit of original design I can see in the whole set of plans. As such it is his to share or charge as he wishes.

I feel he has taken plenty of information from here for free, indeed the burner is based on mobius's design and he should share in return. Plus sell his excellently drafted plans to those who want them. But he prefers to hold out for payment even though most of the design is based on the work of others. His choice.

I can say that it sounds as though cannola is on the right track and there are ample hints without outright disclosure in my comments.

A man with your experience of pipe fittings will prolly be able to think of something very simple if you put your mind to it.

Or try something else that takes your fancy. It might turn out to be better.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I see it has been a while since anyone has posted here, I hope I'm not wasting my time.

Transit dave had a good idea with the square tube 'dam' effect to create an accurate fuel level for the burner jet, I think that if the jet was secured to a pipe, then in the bottom wall of the square tube a water pump gland seal fitted with this pipe going through it, you could then fasten a nut onto the pipe below the assembly, the nut would then go into a large bolt with a hoe through it for the fuel pipe, twisting the pipe/jet assy would then adjust the depth of the jet in the fuel, you'd have to of course ensure the thing was straight otherwise adjustment would be touchy.

I have read all the posts to date, most interesting.
 
Registered: November 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hi folks, i just wanted to put an idea out there that might save people some time and effort .i've got a supply of waste veg oil and have been using it to fuel my diesel car .but have plans to heat my home with it too.babington burner seems the most viable way to burn veg' oil.problem is it can be difficult to make the metal ball with hole in it as the hole is so small
so my idea is to use some of that modeling clay you find in craft shops , thats much like plasticene but goes rock hard after 'fireing' it in the oven.making the tiny, tiny hole with a pin, thread or thin wire while the clay is pliable would be easy and the correct size would be made ( i hear that 0.01 inch is ideal).though i ponder if a smaller hole would would work making the burner use less fuel,as i don't want a large flame burner .most of the burners i have seen on the net are too big and use lots of fuel. what i want is a small oil burner that uses about .2 to .5 litres of veg' oil per hour and easy as possible to build.the trouble with vegetable oil is to burn it , it needs to be pre- heated and needs to be sprayed into a very fine mist to burn cleanly and efficiently.i have seen the 'proteus cooker' made by BSH BOSCH AND SIEMENS., but they are not for sale now.they look like a modern version of the old OPTIMUS camping cookers that used kerosene or parapfin.i am new to this forum so i am not sure what is appropriate but iam interested in alternative fuels and love to tinker and have made some interesting devices . thanks for reading my words all the best . i hope to hear any ideas from you.
 
Registered: November 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi
I've been reading about your tripod burner assembly and would like to know if you have reached the point where you are selling the complete burner assembly (disc, jet, three legs)? If so can you send me a price quote and any other info on what is included. Great design!!! Thanks much
Dave
ddouble2@optonline.net


quote:
Originally posted by mobius1:
I am new to this forum, but I see that anything to offset the cost and hassle of production is helpful. There is a way to build a Babbington burner with slight modifications that will burn vertically instead of horizontally, and it dosent have to have its oil recirculated. It will start and run off of filtered WVO and produce a fairly clean flame easily large enough to use in a NG or propane water heater. I came up with this burner because I'm too cheap to pay for the heating energy to dry my WVO. I think most mechanically inclined people could make one, it is a simple casting/machining job, or it could probably be welded up. I would be happy to share the plans for this burner with anyone that wants them, I also make them. It is basically a large (8" dia)dish or saucer that has a pool of WVO fed into the center from underneath and a jet coming up from the very bottom through which compressed air is fed, the only other requirement is a leveling system to keep the level in the "saucer" constant - just above the jet.
 
Registered: September 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello,
It has been a while since I checked this thread and I wanted to see if anyone has done anything with the idea. I thought of a way that people could use a small cast iron frying pan as the dish if anybody is interested, but I still do the castings
I have been busy building what I consider to be almost the ultimate multi fuel vehicle and I remembered that there were some talented electronic designers in these forums and I wanted to know if they had any suggestions for a 555 purge timer. Im having a hard time with it
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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