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OK, even though i'm a little computer challenged, I put a few drawings on photobucket, will get more in a few days.
http://s64.photobucket.com/albums/h182/mobiusmobius/

The burner is a Turk burner, and I made these for a friends bio setup - I dont like turks that much because they are grossly inefficient, hard to light and a little dangerous, but they are easy to make with junk materials, I still wouldnt put one anywhere near my home. The vertical bab I was talking about earlier is a much more refined, efficient, controllable burner. I will get some pics of that on there asap.
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK, the vertical Babbington pics are on photobucket at the above link- sorry for the quality . Let me know what you think.
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, I'm understanding much better now. Thanks!

Do you put a shield at the top of the chamber, like in a bullet-type heater?

What is the height of the complete assembly?


Brian

2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Mercedes 300D Turbo
1986 Isuzu P'up (NA)
1985 Mercedes 300D Turbo
75/25 WVO/D2 for warm weather
50/50 WVO/D2 for cold weather
Uniqueness is a treasure not to be buried. - Laurence Martel
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The completed assembly is about 3' tall, the duct that I used on top was 2' x 6" and the legs (feed tubes) on bottom could be shortened or legthened to whatever you needed. The duct on top is nessicary, but it burns optimally when the flame goes a little over half way up the tube. The origional idea was to use it with a gas water heater, and use the flue in the heater as the tube, as soon as I get a spare water heater, I'll set it up and post pics. I have run mine like you see it alot last winter and I would reccomend ducting the exhaust gas out, but it will heat a space very well like you see it configured. There is no shield or obstruction in the tube, it could be fitted with a reducer and ducted outside. I also got an igniter from an old heater and a 24 volt solenoid for the compressed air, and set one up for electric start like a regular heater in a home, I will add a thermostat soon. Consumption will vary a little, but its about 1/3 gal per hour, It was a lot cheaper than natural gas last winter.
I have done some calculation and I could offer the dish casting for 48.00 without the jet - I think they are 1.50 per jet from the lantern parts site. This would be the casting, machined and ready to assemble from parts from the HD. I hope that dosent sound excessive, but They have to be moulded, cast with molten aluminum, desanded and machined and threaded - there is a certan amount of time involved in making them, if anyone is interested, you can PM me.
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is a cad drawing of a vertical BB, you can rotate it and view any angle. You may have to download a viewer from emachineshop - its free,and its extremely useful for anyone trying to fab something new, they will also give you a free price quote on any design you submit to them. By looking at this design, you may be able to come up with something you could build yourself. I still think it could also be made out of 3 or 4 discs of steel welded together from your local metal supplier/steel shop, but the casting was easiest for me. This design has 4 feeds - the amount of feeds is really irrelevant as long as you can feed it fast enough, it will burn. As soon as I can get my hands on a better digicam, I'll fire it up and post some pics of it running. I will also try to come up with a way to make one without a casting, if you had the ability to silver solder 4 pipe fittings to the botton of a steel pan, you could make one - regular soldier wouldn't work because of the operating temp, silver soldier/sweat sticks are what a HVAC person uses to attach freon lines, it has to be melted with accetylene and oxygen. OK The discussion board wont accept the file, and photobucket wont either, so PM me and I'll e-mail it to anyone that wants it.
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is a very interessting development. I have seen a tamed down turk burner design in an old gas water heater but this is better.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Working burner, more pics on photobucket link above

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Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mobius, your experiments are a tremendous improvement on any other designs. Simple and
effective.
I am thinking of a simpler way to assemble your burner would be to use 1/4 steel pipe about 7 inches in diameter with a round steel plate welded on one end to make the bottom. The fittings sould be easily threaded in to that thickness. I don't think it would have to be dished necessarily. This method would only require some welding/cutting but not the casting or lathe work.
I am eager to start experimenting with your design right away but also don't have any casting experience or associated machinery.
What do you think?
Again, I'm sure I speak for many others, your idea is revolutionary and worth a lot of money.
Wishing you all the best, Jimmie Martin
 
Location: Reno Nevada | Registered: November 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Baboonman,
Yes you could make one out of a disc of metal, I wouldn't thread pipe nipples into 1/4" steel, there is not enough metal to hold it securely, remember that these are NPT which means a tapered thread so the thread is actually slightly cone-shaped from the profile. I'm not saying that it wont work, because it will, for a while but after repeated heating and cooling you may develop an oil leak, nasty - very nasty. If I were gonna make one out of these materials, I would weld 4 female pipe fittings on the back of a disc, and a 1" slice of pipe with an od the size of the od of the disc (about 6") to the other side. You dont nessicarily have to have a dish or tapered depression in the top. you can have a small grease fire in the pool if you run it too rich and if you have a larger pool, you will have a larger grease fire - but that is essentially what it is making, but we want the atomized grease to burn rather than the pool under it. In any case a simple adjustment of the leveler bucket will stop this. it will just make smoke and consume too much fuel for the heat output if the pool is on fire.
Hey, is the link to photobucket working properly?
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for your insite, Mobius.
Yes, the link works great.
I await your next post eagerly.
Jimmie
 
Location: Reno Nevada | Registered: November 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mobius,
Strangely enough I had been thinking of a burner similar to yours but never built it due to my concern over the flow which you fixed with the toilette like valve. My idea included pointing the air to create a vortex motion. Would that help or hurt?

I also wanted to drive a boiler for home hot water heating. Do you have any more info on the babington or is there some other way I'm not thinking of to do this?
 
Registered: May 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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JimT,
That is what I designed this for, but I use a gas water heater - it already has the flue built into the center, which actually gives you more exposure to the flame than if you had a flame under a barrel or boiler. I think tinkering with the vortex/ oxygen flow is a great idea. I am convinced that if oxygen (ambient air) could be accelerated into the combustion chamber at the right place in the flue, or a greater vortex created which would "pull" oxy into it at the right place, it would burn blue and very efficient. After burning mine, I think it could be made into a large blowtorch with the right tweaks. You would still have to have the air pushing up from the pool, but maybe a vortex tube just above the pool that would further accelerate the air. You can drive a boiler easily as long as it has a flue up the center. If there are any other pics or angles you want to see, I'll take em and post them at the link above.
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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one picture that would answer alot of questions for me would be an exploded view or a bottom view of the can. I understand the bowl but how is the empty can modified and how is it assembled. My assumption was it loosely fit in a can that had the bottom mostly cut out but I wasn't sure.

thanx
Jim
 
Registered: May 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I just thought of something else.

The bowl needs to be heated before its started creating a manual task. What if it was stacked with a propane driven fire below or to the side. Starting it would just be:

-standing pilot for propane
-start propane flow
-start igniter for oil
-start air
-shut propane

I think I'm missing something hopefully not the part where it explodes.

also, my idea for atomizing the oil was using vibration or something like that and adding the air separately. Like your approach better but I thought mine would be less likely to coke up.
 
Registered: May 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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JimT, What about an ultrasonic transducer from a water vaporizer?

Mobi, isn't your flue in the center of the water heater only about 4 inches? Did you have to make any other adjustments for this reduced stack area/volume?


Brian

2000 Jetta TDI
1982 Mercedes 300D Turbo
1986 Isuzu P'up (NA)
1985 Mercedes 300D Turbo
75/25 WVO/D2 for warm weather
50/50 WVO/D2 for cold weather
Uniqueness is a treasure not to be buried. - Laurence Martel
 
Location: High Point, NC | Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jim,
Did you check the pics of the can on photobucket? #30. I will pull it off and take a better one if u want. The can has a row of 3/4 to 1" holes around it near the bottom right behind the flame. I think this would be the best place to start tweaking - I know that there is room for improvement, but I tried several hole configurations in this and the horizontal BB before I came up with this - each time you try a new configuration, you need a new can, and I can only talk the girlfriend into drinking so much coffee. There is a 3 or 4" hole in the bottom of the can and it fits down into the dish. I cut the dish lip about .010" larger than the can so it has to be tapped in lightly, it has 3 screws that secure it from the side. It dosent need to be heated to start, just apply compressed air (with jet under oil level) and light. I had a nice electric ignitor from a NG heater that I used to light mine until I broke it overtightening it - lit it everytime. The jet does a decent job of atomizing the oil although I'm sure it could be tweaked, I think the secret to making it more powerful/efficient is in the oxygen introduction.
Perkhouse,
Yea you saw that did you? A 6" pipe into a 4" I used a reducer and am in the process of tweaking that too, I want the flame to hit the bottom AND the sides of the flue. The dish can always be recast if need be. but it will run with the reducer.
 
Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Mobius this direction of yours looks to answer many people's problems. As you are aiming to operate a water heater it would be ideal to have the unit automated so one wouldn't need to be around to keep an eye on it.
In the vein of automation, is the ignitor you used in the direct path of the air/flame?
If there is a fire in the pool does the burner have to be shut down to extinguish the fire then restart? Obviously, the system needs to be in a somewhat stable environment so the WVO will flow at a steady rate. That would keep the thing from overfilling after warm up of oil supply. I suspect you live in a cold climate also. Our temp here in Reno NV gets to zero and below in winter.
The air compressor is kinda a necessary burden isn't it?
I've been looking at jets and ways to put the parts together and understand much better why you cast the dish the way you did. You have done a lot of experimenting.
Thanks again for sharing your work.
 
Location: Reno Nevada | Registered: November 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Baboonman,
I chose the Babbington to experiment with because it is instant on, all of the others I have experimented with had to have too much user input to start it. My goal is to have this burner in a water heater to make bio, and in the winter just circulate some warm bio thru an auto evaporator coil that is suspeneded in my heating system - presto free heat. If I had the parts, I could automate mine now : another igniter, flame sensor, 24 volt transformer, and tstat. All of these parts are in a LP or NG heater, if anyone has an HVAC connection, I'd like to make a trade for some of these goodies. The Ignitor I used was a glow type (24 v), and I was trying to get it far enough in the flame to ignite it, but not directly in the flame, although I think now it would work just fine that way.
I have the "fire in the pool" problem only when I start messing with it, like after I move it, but once you get it to burn right, the pool fire eventually goes out.
The overfilling after the oil is warm can be an issue, that is why I used multiple feeds, and a small coffee maker heater in the leveler bucket. It gets cold here in Ga. in the winter too and humid which impedes the oil flow, but the multiple feed/larger feed system works OK even when it is cold. My brother wants one for his shop , he lives in Anchorage AK, when I set his up I'll probably make his with 4 feeds and use them all.
The AC is a nessicary evil, but with a .010" jet, is dosent kick on very often and it is a small compressor. Thanks for the interest, I think more people should experiment with it some of the suggestions have been great. Sorry for being so long winded - trying to answer all of the questions.

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Registered: May 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Mobius, Sorry about your ignitor. Got me thinking about your ignitor. Does it operate on 110 volts? It would need a pretty big transformer to run on 24 vac.
I assume the flame detector is to shut off the air if there is no flame or is it used to shut off the ignitor when there is a flame? What is the flame detector? Does it sense heat?
I was/am an electronics tech for many years. The circuitry will need to be designed won't it?
It doesn't need to be complicated. If I can help let me know. Regards, Baboonman
 
Location: Reno Nevada | Registered: November 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Baboonman,
The ignitor is a 24v, it I think just about any home heater system operates on 24v, they use a small 24v, 5-1 step down transformer (about the size of a raquetball). The flame detector I pulled from an old heater opens a circuit when exposed to direct flame for about 2 seconds. It was wired in series with the ignitor so when the ignitor was turned on, the air solenoid was then turned on and as soon as the flame sensor sensed flame, it opened the circuit, cutting the power to the ignitor. I think there is another flame sensor in the heater that cuts the gas flow if it dosent sense flame. I think a delay would be nice so the compressed air wouldn't start until the ignitor was glowing red. This system/components could be used with a standard tstat, but it dosent have the right temperature parameters. I'm sure that custom circuitry will be needed, couldn't you use one of those 555 timer chips or something?

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