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Riello 40 F5 Burner - need help to run on B100
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Curdy,
I,ve been running B100 to heat my house for 14 months (my boiler makes hot water too). The burner is a Riello 40 F5. The burner runs well but every 2-3 weeks I have to clean the turbulator (the slotted round thing around the nozzle). My pump pressure and air settings are about what Riello suggests in their manual. I do HVAC so I have the equipment to set it up. I have tried 'playing' with the pump pressure. It makes no difference.
My brother has also been running my bio in his furnace with a Beckett burner. No occasional cleaning, except for the start of the season and it has been running perfectly.
I think Riellos are the best gun on the market but those flame retention heads don't like bio.
By the way I have never changed the pump seals on either burner and neither one leaks.
 
Registered: January 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by scooter:
Curdy,
I,ve been running B100 to heat my house for 14 months (my boiler makes hot water too). The burner is a Riello 40 F5. The burner runs well but every 2-3 weeks I have to clean the turbulator (the slotted round thing around the nozzle). My pump pressure and air settings are about what Riello suggests in their manual. I do HVAC so I have the equipment to set it up. I have tried 'playing' with the pump pressure. It makes no difference.
My brother has also been running my bio in his furnace with a Beckett burner. No occasional cleaning, except for the start of the season and it has been running perfectly.
I think Riellos are the best gun on the market but those flame retention heads don't like bio.
By the way I have never changed the pump seals on either burner and neither one leaks.


Scooter, mine is a summer/winter hook up as well. I'm concerned it would be a waste of my time to open it up that often to clean it. Depending on how long it would take, it could be cheaper for me to run a blend if it meant burning cleaner. Can you just remove the burner with the 4 bolts attaching the boiler and access the turbulator? If that's the case, than I'm guessing it wouldn't be more than 30 minutes to do a clean?

Its good to hear that you're a pro. I have a pro coming over with all the equipment to help get it going and do all the tests. It sounds like you may be able to save me a bunch of time. What do you recommend we try? What do you think the problem is with not working on B100?
 
Location: York County, PA | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Can you just remove the burner with the 4 bolts attaching the boiler and access the turbulator?

It's even easier than that. The Riello has 2 pins at the top of the mounting flange, just remove the 2 nuts and the burner slides out giving you access to the turbulator.

quote:
The burner is a Riello 40 F5. The burner runs well but every 2-3 weeks I have to clean the turbulator

Scooter,
What did your smoke test come out to?
Whats plugging the turbulator? Soot?
I will have to pull mine and check it...
I have not yet done any combustion tests Frown I have to borrow the equipment and have yet to get around to it.
I plan on swapping the propane furnace in my house out this summer for a high efficiency oil furnace. I intend to run her on B100 with a Riello burner so I am hopefully going to iron out any issues this winter.
Do you have any recommendations on who makes a quality high efficiency oil furnace anymore?
Its funny I have a certificate that says I am a "Certified Riello Burner Technician" LOL But it don't mean much when its been over 15 years since I drove a service truck or set up a furnace Wink.
I am glad I kept the manuals though!
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not to get confusing but Riello burner runs well on bio except when the turbulator gets dirty. This changes the 'twist' in the flame pattern and the burner will still light with less air. The problem is less air = soot in the combustion chamber.
I don't do the old style smoke test. I run a computer combustion analyser. The O2 runs about 2% - 3%. My air adjustment is about 2. The turbulator setting is at 0. Pump pressure is at 145 psi. Of course, with different furnaces and chimneys the readings may be slightly different.
The turbulator is getting plugged with a gummy substance and soot. I thought at the beginning it was glycerin but my bio passes 3/27 well everytime. It seems as the nozzle is spraying fuel some swirls back to the turbulator and gums up.
Tomorrow I'm going to install a Beckett gun that I bought, cause to be honest, my wife is getting upset about taking a cold shower every once in a while because I forgot to clean the turbulator.
Hope this helps!
 
Registered: January 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jon,
Maybe you'll have better luck with a Riello. Maybe my oil is getting too cool to vaporize well enough. I don't have problems in the summer making hot water. I just thought this was because the boiler doesn't run as much but maybe not. The problem is we are running oil that our burners weren't designed to run. So I guess it doesn't matter how much #2 fuel experience I or any of us have. We are on our own.
 
Registered: January 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmm... I am anxious to check my turbulator now!
I will pull it tomorrow and see how she looks. The problem with having it in my shop is that it constantly freezes up, so I have to take the heat gun to it for a awhile to thaw out the pump and lines before I fire it up when its below -3C... its minus 10C right now! Frown
The combustion analyzer computer sounds interesting. It must still give a smoke reading or indecation of it though, no?
I remember when we got our "state of the art" hand held Co detector (LOL its probably in a museum now! Smile) But it was still necessary to use the smoke tester to fine tune the combustion...
FYI the 3/27 does not indicate glycerin content, only conversion. You can pass the 3/27 with flying colours before any glycerin has even been settled out of the bio.
Do you wash your fuel?
What is the ambient temperature in your boiler room?

I will let you know what I find with mine tomorrow...
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Jon,
The way the combustion analyser works for smoke is if there is no or sometimes under 1% O2 then you have an incomplete burn - therefore smoke.
Sorry, I didn't mean glycerin. I did mean unreacted wvo.
I do bubble wash. Usually twice bubbling for about 15 hours each time with about 9 hours settling in between. Then I dry at 130f bubbling for 15 to sometimes 24 hours.
I don't believe it gets as cold here (central New York State) as Ontario Canada but when the wind blows and its below 20f my boiler room can get down to 45f.
I decided not to change out the Riello today. I've left a small electric heater blowing on my oil tank and filter and have had no problems for about a week and the turbulator seems better.
I'll keep monitoring.
Did you get a chance to check your turbulator?
 
Registered: January 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think I know what the gummed up turbulator problem is. I experienced it in my first winter burning b100. As the temperature drops the biodiesel increases in viscosity. The nozzle which is nominally 80 degree spray pattern with diesel at normal temp, will spray at 90 or even 100 degrees when dealing with cold thick biodiesel. This will coat the inside of the burner tube and the turbulator with oil and cause the buildup of gunk. There are only two solutions, mix 10% kerosene in to thin the bio or heat the bio in a small holding tank before using it. Changing the nozzle to a narrower spray pattern might work, but at warmer temperatures this might cause the flame to project too far into the boiler causing other problems. I will email the Riello biodiesel kit instructions to the two guys who asked for it.
 
Location: Lismore Ireland | Registered: November 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well I pulled it and sure enough there is some buildup, not enough to cause any interference, at least not yet... Its only on the right hand side of the turbulator leading me to think that that side might be getting sprayed occasionally, probably when its cold at start up for the reasons pointed out by imakebiodiesel or from a bad/dirty nozzle. The crap doesn't look fresh but its hard to tell, I wonder if its from the beginning when I was getting her setup...
I bet some heat on the pipe to the nozzle would give more consistent starts and run times and may eliminate this issue...

My turbulator setting is almost 2 and the air damper is at about 2.75, I have not checked the pump pressure but believe these run at around 150PSI stock.
Here are some shots.





As you can see there is 0 buildup on the nozzle and electrodes, there is also no sign of nozzle drip in the blast tube...
I should also point out that the turbulator was very gummed up from its life burning regular petrol diesel before I cleaned it up and installed it in the old dinosaur in the shop. So this burner may have had issues right from the beginning.
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Riello list a 40 series model with an oil preheater so these should be available. If not Danfos sell universal preheaters to fit any burner. These should improve the spray pattern and starting from cold.
Im a bit puzzled why the gunk should build up on one side of the turbolater and not the other. Perhaps the nozzle is not working as it should. It might be worth fitting a new one, they are cheap and easy to fit. Be careful not to touch the tip of the nozzle with your fingers while fitting, (Im sure you know all this). You might try unscrewing the turbolater cleaning it and fitting it back turned through 180 degrees. If the plate gunked up on the same side that would eliminate a problem with the plate.
 
Location: Lismore Ireland | Registered: November 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Im a bit puzzled why the gunk should build up on one side of the turbolater and not the other. Perhaps the nozzle is not working as it should.

My thoughts exactly.
The nozzle is the original one that came with the burner, I just gave it a blow job with some compressed air before I fired it up. The residue was very hard and dry which makes me think it may have just been from the beginning but time will tell...
I found the Danfoss preheaters but nothing by Riello for the 40 series... I will have to check out what the local dealer has in his catalog... By the look of the operation of the Riello pump in single line mode it recirculates the oil in the pump body witch I am sure also heats up the oil, mine is a single line setup.
Scooter,
Does the gunk on your turbulator resemble mine?
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Called Riello USA and they said they don't sell pre-heaters...what's up with that? So either I'll end up getting one from Europe along with the biodiesel kit, or I'll get one of these universal ones.

I can't seem to find the Danfoss preheaters for sale anywhere besides overseas. Can anyone shed some light on this?

Also, any experience with the Beckett Start Helper? Will that work just as well?

This is really annoying.

Also noticed earlier today that Beckett sells covers for their burners. If the Beckett ends up burning the B100 better, I may end up switching and getting one of their covers.
 
Location: York County, PA | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Update;
Well after about 3/4 of a drum of B100 I pulled the turbulator again today. It looked good as new, there was no sign of buildup on the right side like before so I am pretty sure the previous buildup was due to the adjusting on the initial start up...
Scooter, I wonder if you try adjusting your turbulator out a bit like mine if it will stop getting coked up?
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Jon Heron:
Update;
Well after about 3/4 of a drum of B100 I pulled the turbulator again today. It looked good as new, there was no sign of buildup on the right side like before so I am pretty sure the previous buildup was due to the adjusting on the initial start up...
Scooter, I wonder if you try adjusting your turbulator out a bit like mine if it will stop getting coked up?
Jon


Hey Jon, thanks for keeping us updated...I guess I missed the notification email that you posted this last month.

This is good news that you got it working well. I'll be looking to you for quite a bit of advice on this subject.
 
Location: York County, PA | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Curdy:
...I guess I missed the notification email that you posted this last month....
email notifications on this site don't work. They have not for a few years if I recall right.


_________________________
If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT;

But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well.
 
Location: North Tx | Registered: November 23, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by jeepin, moggin Jessup (coachgeo):
quote:
Originally posted by Curdy:
...I guess I missed the notification email that you posted this last month....
email notifications on this site don't work. They have not for a few years if I recall right.


Got this one! I must have deleted the other one by mistake
 
Location: York County, PA | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dear oil burner folks --there are one or two points I'm interested in re your experiences with bio used in pressure jet burners of varying brands. I had to telephone the 'Electro-oil' technician and in the discussion he said the present trend re pressure when on red diesel (35 sec redwood no 1)- for optimum vaporising of this thicker fuel
was no less than 200 psi due to the viscosity.I will be doing some experiments with bio in my pressure jet and can let you know what I find re the continued cleanliness of the air difuser.Re nozzles- Danfoss recomend changes to this component each year but it may well not need this amount of changes but they do need changing regularly. The choice of the correct nozzle for the correct amount of fuel to a given amount of air is critical with any fuel. Also the difuser can suffer sooting if the position of the difuser is incorrect if it is adjustible in the draught tube thus allowing the fuel to not mix with the fuel correctly for optimum complete combustion.I've found that on a few occasions that if the difuser is set too far forward not enough air goes thro it & if this is the case it rapidly becomes contaminated. Many technicians set a burner up to commision with the difuser at mid position and the air also at this setting but with oil of 35 sec viscosity the pump pressure is set at 200 psi. I wonder what indeed is the exact viscosity of bio fuel ???? The calorific value cannot be much different than diesel due to experience with the fact that there seems little or no difference with our nissan 2.7 TDi or our Toyota D4d mono rail landcruiser both on neat bio. The outcome will be interesting to me and you all I'm sure. I can ask a very good company of seal manufacturers here in the UK about the possibility of viton seals for the ram on the riello burners. They are a German originated firm called Dictomatic and are seal specialists.They can make virtually any seal in any rubber and their rep tells me they are now getting well into the technicalities of bio.
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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imakebiodiesel ---- I had to say this as I've touched many a nozzle in my time & in all these years I've seen no ill effect because I always touch the tip of every nozzle I've fitted ---hell they're made of steel ai'nt they ???? hard as a Dogger Bank cod !!!!!! Wink
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Pressurejet,
I look forward to your contributions!!
While setting up your test rig I would suggest a nozzle preheater, I am convinced that this will lead to much more consistent starts with an even burn throughout the cycle but have yet to get one for testing...
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jon -- after posting the messages last night I looked at a site- www.ag.ndsu.edu which was written way back in 2003. It says that bio is not much different than red diesel re viscosity! another site gives a full data on nearly all viscosities of fluids that site -engineering toolbox.com re kinematic-viscosity-d. I found both informative. I feel strongly that it is important to achieve good atomisation that I must wind the pressure up to at least the 200psi I mentioned with of course the appropriate nozzle size to achieve the input in gall per hr which is necessary for the boiler/furnace at that pressure. It was interesting to note that the guy quoted 140.000 btu's diesel and 130000 btu's for biofuel which would seem to corrispond to kerro which is slightly less calorific value than diesel. I have noted that there is better start up with better atomisation with red diesel
with the pressure at 200 psi but I have not experimented with higher pressures but I ask myself why not ??? as you probably know the nozzle accepted as the norm for diesel would be a 'S'type down to .4 us gall per hr with whatever deg angle of spray 45/60 or 80 (wide to narrow)in that order. I look forward to experimenting & hope I can be of some help re the findings re flow rates etc which will clarify the viscosity of the bio.. regards Mick
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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