Hello every one using Biodiesel in Pressure Jet Burners particularly Riello G40 / 5 & others. Cold starting with Biodiesel without a preheater ( please see November experimentation) may well cause on off on off burner firing ie (the burner tries to fire but will not = flame will not establish).
I had a two pipe system as my fuel tank is underground but have changed it to a Tigerloop and a preheater right after the flow line out of the Tigerloop to the burner. Since the change I have had no issues with cold starting on B100. My fuel is of good qual but when the cold weather set in on the first cold day I did have burner none firing issues now the jobs done =no problems ( heating engs boilers always get attention last). Regards the recognized pressure settings in cold climates for the various fuels - Kero = 150 psi, Diesel 35 sec = 200 psi, Bio = 200 psi or above but may be dependent on the flow rate re 'bio', but not less than the recomended atomizing pressure for mineral Diesel.
The back and forward adjustment of the diffuser (USA = tarbulator) can be quite important in cold starting temps because the position of it relates to flame retention as per the Riello manual.
I found the minimum nozzle size re flow rate for bio to be .85 usa galls /hr.
One little experiment re if the fuel is cold is to rig the burner fuel line to a small warm vesstle warm everything nicely make sure the nozzle is new and see if it fires........
Hope this helps (UK midlands= minus 5 C tonight)
I checked for loose terminals etc, but all ok.
I gave the combustion parts a good clean and de-carbon this morning and it now seems to be ok.
I do think however that there is something wrong with the burn as I only cleaned it about 4 weeks ago.
I will have to reset it all soon, but as long as it keeps going through this cold spell, thats the main thing.
It got down to -10C here last night.
Did you put in a new nozzle? Your mileage may vary with just trying to clean it, the recommended practice is to just replace the nozzle during the annual service as they can be finicky.
If it starts cutting out again make note of exactly whats happening, is the burner cutting out completely or is it just the ignition cutting out.
Sometimes the electrodes can become pitted and worn on the tips, you can redo them with a good points file and then set them back up to spec. Poorly adjusted or worn electrodes can also make for inconsistent starts.
Where do you get your pressure suggestions for the different fuels? I run my BF4 riello at about 120PSI with .55/80W nozzle in it with out issue on B100.
Do you have a link to this Tigerloop rig you speak of? I could not find anything with a google search.
Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
Thanks Jon, if it goes on the blink again I will report on here with the exact description of what it is doing.
Thanks everyone for all the help.
my boiler fuel pressure is 140psi, but the main issue I ran into was the colour of the flame, if the fuel mixture is too lean then the eye will not see the flame the way it should and the unit will fault. Also the fire needs to be established within the parameters of the burner control, some are 15 seconds others 30 or 45 seconds. The new control I put in last year allows you to set the flame justification time. the electronic unit is cheap and saved many headaches.
As for the nozzle change them often, the inner cone has very thin slits that the fuel passes through, these wax up and cause problems. They can be cleaned but a new nozzle is only 6 bucks Cdn.
" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
Hi Jon I got my Riello G40/5 Burner from Ireland because they have far more used burners in that country than here in England so there probably are more out in the 'sticks' places there on oil as opposed to nat gas. I telephoned the tech at Selectos (part of Nu-way) some thirty years ago as I was having a bit of a problem with a bit of water in the 35 sec diesel that a farmer would persistently use and not change to Kero as I advised. He used this in his vehicle so stuck with that diesel. The tech advised that due to new experimentation to wind the pressure up on 35 sec which I have always done and cured cold starting problems with that thicker fuel. Potterton BOA boilers were the finest sectional boiler anyone could find and were 80% efficient 40 odd years ago. The nearest boiler now bettering that boiler is made by De-deitrich and is of southern France/German origin.Its got a fine complex cast iron heat exchanger for longevity and is much easier than the BOA to service with it's hinged front door.
There is a chap in Ireland who seems very knowledgeable on all types of heaters/boiler/burners and is into Bio as well & I think I've seen his posts here on this blog but I can't remember his name off hand(I'm old)but when I see it I'll mention it.
Right------ In cold climates the thicker fuel may well give problems on start up but may not be the problem with larger nozzles than about 2 gall/Hr but I have not experimented with such big nozzles as my boiler is 100,000 BT'us and a 1.25 is OK for me with the correct pressure settings and air adjustments and the correct position of the diffuser which of course is adjustible on the Riello G40 burners. A lot of engineers like that burner because of the adjustment one can make with the diffuser which as I said is adjustable to alter the flame retention ( flame distance from burner blast tube head.)The flame retention also has a bearing on the cold start possibilities.
Because of the thicker 35 sec fuel and it's associated problems as well as less cost re VAT of Kerosene it is Kero that is used mostly in the UK mainly cuz it's cheaper but also more trouble free than the thicker fuel. All fuel pumps I believe can now burn Kero but long ago the fuel pumps were limited to low outputs but not now.
Riello's nice tech chap said that Bio was very much in it,s infancy a few years ago and he thought a special nozzle for bio was being experimented upon but I have not heard of one as yet. Is there one out there ---- Bio-Tom seems knowledgeable and on the right track in that respect and in any case is astute in Biodiesel matters and it's technicalities. Riello said that a 'nozzle holder' preheater was available but I still had problems with the nozzles with heating the fuel at the nozzle.
The Irish chap seems to use the Becket burner but states that his fuel tank is relatively warm and is in his basement at 50F or so. He says he has a pre-heater but has not fitted it as yet but why should he if his fuel is warm thereby not causing fuel atomization problems ?
In a previous post I mentioned I did have a nozzle problem in cold weather starting with B100 even with a 1.25 g/Hr nozzle at 230 psi but I have no problem with the Tigerloop with the preheater heating the fuel in the fuel pipe 'loop' between the burner and the Tigerloop. I went for the Tigerloop because the fuel heated is just in the loop only and the fuel heated is the fuel which is burnt at the burner.
The clever development of the common rail engines with the thousands of pounds/sq inch pressures as opposed to the hundreds of pounds/sq in the older engines confirm that atomization of the fuel in the modern engines is very important re the burning of the 35 sec fuel that is used but also confirms the complexity of the subject not least regarding emmissions out of the exhaust pipe......
I have charts somewhere re nozzle sizes and fuels and pressure settings and can post with pleasure if required but this I believe is available on the net by 'Danfoss'. I doubt very much there is any nozzle data for Bio fuel ?
Best Regards Mick
Hi Jon --- I just typed in tigerloop and all sorts of sites came up on the net.
There are a lot of suppliers out there with varying prices. I found a website for the Swedish company
who developed them but I found that site not very informative. There is a special one however for Biodiesel and that's what I have. I sent that very nice guy -Graydon who I have a lot of respect for due to him giving me advice when I first started making bio --- a photo of my set up with the heater in position but I did say to him - "I bet it's nothing new" ! He thought it was 'sweet', so that made me happy coming from such an experienced bio manufacturer....
If only I lived in a warmer climate ! my troubles with cold bio would be over! I hate buying petrol
at the pumps but it's the cheapest to ward off the thickening of the bio in our crap climate (I'm glad I don't live in Russia !)
Best Wishes Mick
Hello Jon The guy in Ireland I mentioned (you may know of him already on here) is 'imakebiodiesel'
He seems very knowledgeable re all aspects of bio heat. I just saw you are in Canada so you are quite cool there I bet ! I see you had a bio fuel supply to the burner which is inside ? I am assuming any fuel supply that is above 5 C may well not cause problems with burning it but it seems to be the temp of the bio that cause problems with this fuel clouding/ particle formation and with this it's
associated problems. I think I said somewhere that I had no problems at all with burning B100 but when the cold weather came it changed my mind because my burner would not fire as per the book.
Of course even if a burner fires it does not mean it is going to burn cleanly. I hope no one minds me mentioning --------to save cleaning chores
the burner must be set up correctly with a smoke reading of 1 or less. Better is a smoke reading of 0 which will mean no smoke which = no cleaning. The air requirement should be adjusted to give just enough air for complete combustion but no more because the more air over the exact required air for complete combustion will result in more heat going up the flue ! Happy Heating
Hi Pressurejet, sorry i didnt answer sooner, I havent looked at this section for a few weeks.
I find that two problems occur with burning biodiesel in a Riello 40 series burner.
The first is poor starts and rough burning if the viscosity of the fuel is wrong. This results in a build up of glaze on the nozzle and turbolater that makes the problem worse over time. The burner when set to the diesel settings, needs to be fed with fuel with the same viscosity as ordinary diesel. There are two ways to do this.
1. Add approximately 20% kerosene to the biodiesel
2. Preheat the biodiesel to 40°C.
You can make a simple viscosity tester by making a small hole in the bottom of a tin can. Fill it with diesel and time how long it takes to drain. Then adjust your biodiesel with kerosene until you get a match.
The second problem is gelling in cold weather. Adding kerosene will go a long way to solving this problem as well but the best solution is to install a tank inside your boiler house where the temperature will not drop below 5°C. Avoid using fatty oil for making winter biodiesel.
I find that if you get the viscosity right and avoid gelling the Riello 40 and RDB burners run faultlessly on biodiesel, requiring just one service and clean each year.
Thanks IMB, Good Info.
Thanks Mick! I must have goofed up something when I tried to search for it before...
That looks like a good solution for people with in-ground or outdoor tanks.
I put my tank inside to avoid any issues with that. Its -14C here right now!
I use B100, I set it up with 112PSI pump pressure, a smoke reading of '0', 14% CO and a stack temp of 250C (just checked my log book).
The turbulator is set at the furthest out setting if I recall correctly.
I am well into my second heating season and so far so good, I have only serviced it once since installing it and last winter was a real btich, long and cold!
I posted all about it all here:
Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
Thanks Jon and thanks Imakebiodiesel I have been looking at the riello installation book & see that I have stated pressure settings for Kero a bit high because it says Max = 147 psi min =100 psi. I also spoke to a tech at Electro-oil who I think are swedish & he also confirmed the advocated high pressures for 35 sec fuel with of course the correct reduced nozzle size required for the input as per the heating load.... I must do more experimentation with smaller nozzles now I have warm Bio circulating in the loop I have rigged up.The single fuel pipe going into my Tigerloop is right above a heating pipe so once the system is warm the band heater does not draw much electricity warming the Bio as it's got an adjustable thermostat at 50c.I have run the heater at 60 C without a problem but now I see imakebio- recomends 40 I'll see what that does. I see the RBL fuel pump copes with a higher temp but so long as the Bio is warm it works without a problem but it's buggered at near freezing temps.I had my rose colored glasses on when I used it first off in the warmer weather but I did not know then about the little flakes that form on the top of my in the ground bio. I found that a bit of petrol will completely desolve them into liquid in a jar as does thinners & I see the winter additive for bio seems to have chemicals that resemble celulose thinners -perhapse you or BioTom would enlighten me on that one ?
I wonder why Riello withdrew their bio conversion kit ? Was it because of the same nozzle trouble I had experienced. Your system re a relatively warm tank is a good idea. I saw a system once that pumped fuel from the big storage tank to a small tank about 12 feet from the boiler but I see someone has got one about a yard from an appliance which might be dodgy. I have got nothing against experimentation because where would we be without it but a few folks just don't realise that there can be dangerous implications even with diesel when it gets going re fire and when the fuel is atomized also. I once saw a 4 ft split in a 10" twin walled stainless flue pipe that was caused by an impatient baker not adhering to the three minute rule between pressing the reset button. There must have been enough atomized fuel in that hot oven to cause a bang and it did just that !
Best Regards Mick
Riello discontinued the biodiesel kit when they changed the standard seals in all of their burners from rubber to Viton in 2008. From then on all new replacement seals were also Viton but there was and may still be older stock of replacement seals held by Riello stockists. Its important to check how recent spares are when buying them and often the stockists dont know how old they are.
I use 40°C because I found that reduced the viscosity of biodiesel to a match with diesel at 10°C. It does no harm to go higher, I just found that it was unnecessary.
Thanks imakebiodiesel Very nice info..... I used to run a electro-oil but went for a Riello
G5 with it's adjustable diffuser/Tarb & I got it from your neck of the woods.
The pumps just started leaking so I've got a new one with a few extra bits from World of Heating spares who seem good for prices and free post if you pick up next day from a local shop... seems
a lot better than to get locally. They are in Northumberland and seem very aimiable but most of all efficient. I'm getting the Bio pump for 55 + vat which you may know is about half the merchants price.
I am keen to try the small nozzles with high pressure on B100 mainly to see if the nozzles last...
Thanks a lot regards Mick
Hi Jon Imakebio Tom & all the other wexperimenters burning biodiesel in Pressure Jet burners......
Well I still have trouble with the diffuser/Turbulator in my Riello 40 G5 burner with the turbulator coking up towards the bottom of the turbulator. What is a bit of a puzzle is that the smoke is zero and I've lessened the bio down to about 60 % with 40% Kero. I preheat the fuel as I think I said to up to 40c . Although the turbulator gets coked it does not stop uit firing up each & every time.
I think I mentioned that i have made a tube so that the burner is firing downwards at 45 deg and any
residual fuel drips out of the way into a biece of half round steel so it gets burnt inside the Potterton BOA but the diffuser still cokes partially after about 2 weeks.
I saw very early on in this post that it is said that the Becket Burner burns cleaner and I would dearly like to know if indeed this is the case.....
I notice that all the waste oil burners seem to have long blast tubes and I wonder if the end of the tube is so hot it causes the residual fuel to burn off completely......
I remember I think Jon saying the bigger the input the cleaner the blast tube.
I am interested to know what the difference is between the Becket and Riello 40 G5 blast tube is?
It is frustrating to me because I've got many a 'RED' Diesel burner clean burning but not this one.
How converted is your bio, reason I ask is that there is a tendency to under convert bio for the heating and this can make a big difference to the ratio's involved.
Also bio that is just settled (not for long) contains higher amounts of soap and glycerol. I 95% convert mine and then don't de-meth but leave it for several months to settle. As it still has methanol present there is still soap and glycerol there but not much.
There is a lot of difference in the % you can use in the blend between the '2 types' of bio.
Thanks DGS I think my fuel is good because it is processed from soyan oil and starts off at 2 or 2.5 titration and I always 2 stage process it with Pot Hydrox as you know this remains liquid at any temp ( can't do with the thought of solid immersions !)
We've used it for years now in the Toyota D4D engine and the only problem occasionally was the ellectonic SCV's on the injection pump but Atkins Mansfield told me Denso(Toyota have been having problems with those valves using mineral diesel so he said it's not your fuel.
We used it for 6 years in a Nissan Terrano 2.7TDi with no problem. My old Lanrover has a CAV pump
that should have blown up 8 years ago butit's still chugging away.
I tested it once years ago and it passed the test then but that was with the single process & some
of my oil was crap at 7 titration........
I think the Toyota with the common rail engine 40000 miles on my bio would have spluttered before now
( I hope now I've said that the bugger keeps good) and its been B100 apart from petrol at 10% in
it apart from this coming cold season where I'll put some of this anti fuel clouding stuff in at
£50 odd for 10 lts. It works out cheaper than the petrol so I hope it works..... Havn't been to the pumps in years now.
This burner problem is quite a tester. I think I said I noticed the waste oil burners' blast tubes are red hot so if I put an extension on it may alter the temp within the tube????????
When I plugged the Nu way and the RGB3 in same effect & the fact that it was drippuing while in full flow so it's not a dribble on shut off..... I bought a Delavan nozzle check valve as well last season to no benefit. I think it must be the design and operation of the blast tube which is crucial
and I;m thinking back there uswed to be burners on thicker oil with an imersion in the storage tanks that would not run below about 400000 input & I think the bigger the flow of fuel the better the burn. I wonder if that applies to more flow =hotter = cleaner...... I've got good atomization but not quite good enough------ what a bugger.
Regards & best wishes Mick Hall
Hello Scooter, Jon Heron and other bioiesel burners........
Please forgive me for some of my doubts being able to ever burn biodiesl cleanly in pressure jets.
I have found that an old burner of mine mentioned way back which is an Electro oil B9 with a fixed head that I burnt B100 but the flame was just not quite right ( for me anyway.)
I then bought a Riello 40 G5 similar to Scooters GF ( it might even be identical?)
I have tried all sorts of adjustment to no avail re the turbulator being fouled too often.
You may have already found one of the problems with 'modern retention heads' is that the anomaly
is that I found that there was too much retention when burning thicker fuels with this type
of burner...... After all on the tin it does say Kerosene burner re the Riellos. As if to say they do not like dieasel burnt in them !
Yesterday I though I would go against the book that states 1.5 is the minimum primary air
setting on the Riello 40 G5. I set this air tube setting to Zero = 0 and the turbulator seems to be now not getting fuel on it so it may well keep cleaner..... Have you tried that Scooter? Bigger setting = more retention. Less = less retention more combustion chamber pressure/ + increased CO2.
I am experimenting with an old Selectos burner to convert it to the blue flame technology.
Although the blue flame technology has not been heralded by a fanfare of trumpets it may well be the best thing that happened to Biodiesel burners since the first dieasel well was discovered!
Has any one already purchased One of these Blue Flame burners I wonder?
There is now available a proven & affordable burner design, capable to handle any kind of liquids, including waste/crude glycerin and biodiesel fuel.
Details can be seen here: www.savoiapower.com/biodiesel.html
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