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Riello 40 F5 Burner - need help to run on B100
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That figure of 140000 btu's was per US gallon I think... sorry I missed this out.
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jon --I looked at the journey to forever site & way down the list is an article by riello engineer who confirms what I thought the initial settings should be. An 80 deg nozzle to help with flame retention.
Adjustment of the diffuser to be one notch further away from the diffuser end of the draught tube than the setting for diesel. ie if setting is on 3 for diesel then 4 for bio. Riello state that if there is a problem with cold firing and flame retention is found to be not occuring - up the pressure. It would make sense in my view to put the pump in any case at high pressure & even when burning diesel 14 bar is advised by Riello and Electro oil. These would be my initial settings & then combustion test with smoke being the first test for a clean flame (just clean that is with no excess air going up the flue)
I hope this will be of some help. Wink
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Mick,
I believe the paper I linked to on the first page of this thread is the same one your talking about?
I have not checked the pump pressure on my gun yet but it seems to have good retention and a nice burn.
The comment about the turbulator needing to be further away for bio makes sense when you compare scooters setting of 0 causing his turbulator to gum up and with my setting at about 2 (as seen in the pictures on the previous page) which does not seem to be having any fouling problems now. I am still using the stock nozzle of .65 GPH with a 60 degree nozzle.
When I set up my new burner for the house furnace I intend to use a 80 degree nozzle and I am not sure if hollow or semi solid would be the best pattern for bio? I will also use a nozzle preheater to ensure consistent starts at different ambient temperatures.
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I sent an email to Danfoss technical support department asking for their opinion on the type of preheater best suited for biodiesel on Riello guns... I will post any relevant information they may respond with...
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think you'll find the sputtering problem useing B100 is caused by lack of proper atomization of the fuel. if the fuel atomizes properly, you can mix 25% wvo into your bio and it won't affect the burn at all. to correct the problem, increase pump pressure to between 150-160 psi. or intall the next size smaller nozzle. Good luck NEVER GIVE UP! Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jon ---Oil tech data states that on diesel solid nozzles are chosen but kerro modern data -ES and H but all modified hollow types for kerro. I'll give our local Riello tech a ring here in UK to see if indeed they have any new findings & data for bio. I had been working on all types of burner for years before I heard about the 200 PSi pressure for red diesel but it is stated in a few burner manufacturers fitting instruction books for some time now to go to 14 bar for optimum cool weather firing.This pressure does give trouble free running on diesel there's no question about that. Now Bio is firmly becoming a favourite with those in the know it is bound to be researched by the burner research folks as they did with better nozzles for kero many years ago.Who knows as we speak 'they' may be designing a special nozzle for bio without the need for a pre-heater'-- Wink especially in the States where you seem to be miles in front of the UK . Regards Mick
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Anyone have any updates on this topic?
 
Location: York County, PA | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry its been a while since my last notes on burning bio in a pressure jet burner.. Ive done a little experimenting and run my burner which is an Electro-oil burner with a S nozzle -0.5 gal per Hr x60 deg but the significant thing is I upped the pressure to 300 psi and found very smooth running with this pressure. As I said before I think the reasoning behind the upping of the pressure to 200psi by the Electro-oil rep -years ago when burning 35 sec oil aims towards better atomisation.he pump is a Danfoss 21 but I think the 11 is very similar.
I pondered the fact that the motor manufacturers Common Rail engines that deliver around 25.000 psi
in the system likewise are aiming at AND ACHIEVING nigh on perfect atomisation with better economy and cleaner burn and although the car engines are very complex systems I believe that the highest pressure the particular pump can deliver is the best to set it at. Dont forget to size the nozzle down accordingly with these high pressures for the particular output in terms of LOAD required in the Heating Boiler that the burner is attatched to. Best regards from the UK
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi all you B100 users -in pressurejet burners..... Just been doing a bit more experimenting with a 19 year old Bentone electro oil 'inter' burner which is about 30 to 40 kw. I found a problem with a .5 gall/ hr nozzle with smoke so I upped it to .85 gal/hr & this gave good results with nil smoke. bigger nozzle outputs than this I'm sure would be OK but the problem existed with the Low output nozzles even when adjusted to high pressure. The small nozzles do not seem to like B100 but as I said if .85 and bigger nozzles are used then the flame would be clean and start up Ok. The pump is a new one Danfoss BFP 21 L3 which is adjusted to 210 psi. The draugh tube on this burner is fixed type so perhapse the Riello burners might be better as some are adjustible in respect of the swirler/difuser/turbulator... It might be worth mentioning that I had a problem with 'after squirting) - when there is still a flame which dies down after the solenoid has shut. I have fitted an additional 1/8th bsp 240 volt solenoid from screwfix ( made by Anglo Nordic) fitted right onto the high pressure thread that goes into the burner -which should cure this problem. I have never experienced this passing of fuel through the solenoid valve that is now fitted to thse modern pumps before with diesel or kero. The pump on this burner is set for two pipe circulation as my tank is below ground but this should not cause the after squirting... Because this B100 is new here in the UK not many of the burner manufacturers have quick answers but it seems that Riello are in the forefront in this field and their Technitian used to work at Electro oil and he is a very aimiable chap and very experienced.
I firmly believe that a preheater is not necessary behind the nozzle but I'm very much open to suggestions in this area. I looked at the data dished out on the net by Riello on burning Bio but it doesn't seem to me to be an all that comprehensive article on the subject. My experiments are ongoing.
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Curdy --- I hope You've read my reply JANUARY Please will you state what is the exact burner you have --I see you said it was a Riello 40 but there are quite a few burners in this type. The regular domestic ones in the Riello 40 series that I am familiar with are---- G3 G5 G10. This matters because as I have just mentioned in the post above you can put too small a nozzle in a burner because it is an anomaly that the burner will be 'under fuelled' and there will not be 'complete combustion'and the flame will be dirty......
Lately I feel that when burning B100 it may well pay to put a next size up nozzle than the one that would burn diesel and also to up the pressure a bit by 10 to 20 psi ( to 210/220 psi) when burning B100. The burner I am using starts clean and is Nil smoke it has a .85 x 80 es nozzle in it. - adjust the air IN so that the flame comes onto smoke & then slowly increase the air in until the smoke is JUST NIL. You probably realise that if there is more air going in than is needed for complete combustion the burner will be under efficient. ie-- too much air going up the chimney!!!!! and with this air 'HEAT'.......... I look forward to seeing which of the Riello 40 series you have ( they are an excellent range of burners)
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi, its a F5
 
Location: York County, PA | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Curdy and anyone using bio in Riello pressure jet oil burners. I've had an email from Riello.
The technical rep Mike Craven for Riello burners sent the latest they have on burning bio. My deliberations on the subject appear to be similar to his advice especially the adjustments to the burner re the nozzle sizes. The 40 series re the F or G 5 which are relatively the same burner and accept the same parts may need a bit of modification to burn bio but the best chap to contact if you
want it straight from the horses mouth is a chap at Riello his email is bhale@rielloburners.co.uk who can send a form to fill in with the necessary exact if needed advice by email. If you would like the latest sheets from Riello the chief technical rep's email is
mcraven@rielloburners.co.uk As it says in the latest advice sheets Bio here in the UK is
in it's infancy but I find that B100 will burn with a clean flame with the nozzle I have mentioned
.85x 80 es so I think this would be found to be the case in your Riello 40 G/or F5 burner. with the air and difuser adjusted correctly as if it were 35 sec fuel oil being burnt. Hope all goes well. Mick in the UK
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Good work Mick!
Thanks for keeping us informed!
I had to put my house furnace project on hold for this winter but hopefully next year it will be in action...
My shop furnace is still burning B100 trouble free.
Did Mike Craven recommend a biodiesel kit for the F5? Mine has been operating on B100 for almost 2 years now with no leaks so I wonder if the bio pump kit is even required. I did replace the rubber gasket for the pump cover with a paper one before I put it into service...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi john As you've found you may well have no trouble with your parts that are working OK on your burner with the standard gear when burning B100. It appears that the manufacturers are probably
concerned with faults that may occur to their burners under guarantee as I see as yet the fuel they are talking about is only a percentage of the bio. It may well be that due to all you pioneers out there using neat bio in either furnaces or as I am in my wifes posh Landcruiser with a common rail engine we may be in advance of the manufacturers in this case.. give them their due though they are experimenting all but slowly..
I cannot see a problem with the use of the neat Bio so long as it is clean fuel and as you probably know blockages of one description or another will occure if the fuel is not good quality..I hope you see Riello's literature in respect of their latest findings re Bio. After all I find no difference in performance with it (B1000 in our three vehicles than compared with mineral diesel.The calorific value I'm told is only slightly less than mineral diesel --- I can vouch for the fact that it is a very hot flame.
The problem I had which caused me to fit an additional fuel solenoid to stop afterburning & fuel residue may be a problem that others have but they may not have attributed a dirty burner head as I found mine to be afterburning. They may think the problem has been caused by an improperly burning flame. I am lucky that I can see the flame thro the viewing window into the combustion chamber in my boiler which is an old Potterton BOA 108. I will sometimes fire a burner outside the furnace if this is possible to see first hand what is happening at the burner head -thro it's sequence etc.----but careful mind-- don't set yourself on fire!!!!! ... regards Mick
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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John-- I forgot to say that although he says no modification is needed for the 40 series -G10 and G20
It seems that they recomend a 'retro' kit for the G/F5 but due to the g/F5 being in the same output catagory as my Electro oil burner which is more of a basic burner than the riello with no difuser adjustment (fixed difuser/draught tube) I see no problem (as you have found) with the G5 burning B100 with little or no modification. The adjustible back and forward adjustment of the difuser alters the adherance of the flame onto the head & I believe this has got to be paid attention to in cold climates re cold firing. There is full explaining for these adjustments in the Riello fitting instuctions for the G/F5 and 10. It explains the various adjustments appertaining to the various combustion chambers that these burners can be fitted to & thus the need to adjust the difuser for optimum flame retention (particularly for cold start firing)in cold climes... Just a last point re the nozzles used for Bio --- I think the minimum of .85 gal/hr output should be chosen as minimum
(did I say that before) and the recomended 80 degree angle of spray as the norm. Regards Mick
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi all ---- Further experimentation re burning B100 in Pressure Jet Burners.
Way better than a nozzle heater I experimented with and as per the message I just wrote in ('burning B100 in Pressure jet burners) I though I'd better describe my latest idea which works
although I bet it's nothing new. The Tiger loop for Bio did it for me- well as a good start anyway.
make a cylinder in Stainless about 70mm long with appropriate connections onto the outlet of the Tigerloop. Fit band heater 100 W or so. Stat to control 30 - 60 C. ( mine runs at 50C winter).
I had problems with nozzles being heated with the nozzle holder preheat but find no problems at all
with this new 'set up'. I noted that these devices are available for Biodiesel. These devices only draw the amount of fuel used at the burner therefor the fuel is circulating in the loop only, thus warming only the fuel within the loop.
I hope this helps all who burn B100 to keep warm in cold weather.
Now the price of kero is so low why make bio to burn?
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi all especially Mike ---- Further experimentation re burning B100 in Pressure Jet Burners.
Way better than a nozzle heater I experimented with and as per the message I just wrote in ('burning B100 in Pressure jet burners) I though I'd better describe my latest idea which works
although I bet it's nothing new. The Tiger loop for Bio did it for me- well as a good start anyway.
make a cylinder in Stainless about 70mm long with appropriate connections onto the outlet of the Tigerloop. Fit band heater 100 W or so. Stat to control 30 - 60 C. ( mine runs at 50C winter).
I had problems with nozzles being heated with the nozzle holder preheat but find no problems at all
with this new 'set up'. I noted that these devices are available for Biodiesel. These devices only draw the amount of fuel used at the burner therefor the fuel is circulating in the loop only, thus warming only the fuel within the loop.
I hope this helps all who burn B100 to keep warm in cold weather.
Now the price of kero is so low why make bio to burn?
 
Location: Nottingham in England | Registered: August 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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IMB help please. (or anyone who knows)

This is the 4th winter I've run my riello 40 boiler on bio. It's never had any 'bio' bits fitted, all I've ever done is turn up the pump pressure. It has worked fine on 85/15 bio/kerro until now.

When it's cold it works fine till about 20 mins, then it is off/on intermittently.
I've cleaned all the burner parts and the little 'eye' but can't understand why it only has this fault when hot?
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I would suspect a loose connection first. Pop off the ignition transformer and tighten all the connections. Have a close look at the connection to the cad cell and make sure its clean and tight also.
Do you have a spare burner you can try swapping parts out with? If not I can dig out my service manual and give you the the measurements for troubleshooting the board and cad cell.
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for the help Jon, will check those things and report back.
Don't have a spare I can swap parts with.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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