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Riello 40 F5 Burner - need help to run on B100

This topic can be found at:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8541078231/m/9061019482

January 08, 2009, 12:54 PM
Curdy
Riello 40 F5 Burner - need help to run on B100
I need some help with running my burner on B100.

Vitals:
Burnham V8 Boiler
Riello 40 F5 Burner

In a nut shell, I want to run on B100 and right now, it won't fire on it. I started to experiment and tried B90. That did ignite and kept the burner going...but it sputtered. B80 sputtered less and B70 seemed to have minimal if any sputtering, so I went with that. I had someone else suggest to increase the pressure. I'm not 100% sure how to do that, but I'm hoping someone here does...that is of course if that's what I need to do.

The thing that bugs me is that I have a friend that has a Beckett burner that fires just fine on B100 without any adjustment. I have a spare Beckett on my bench right now, and I'll experiement soem with that. But I'd like to stick with Riello if possible being that its much newer (2-3 yrs old), and the nice cover that goes over it REALLY dampens the sound (the boiler is in a finished room).

My understanding is that Riello sells a B100 compatible seal kit...but not in the US. I'll obviously need that at some point...where should I get it? Also I believe there is a high pressure pump I can get...but may also not be available in the US?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Oh, and this may help too...I took a sample of the same B70 currently running in the Riello and ran in my multi-fuel torpedo heater. I figured since it is more open I could see the flame better and analyze it some...only difference being that this runs off of hot surface ignition as opposed to an electrical arc. It ran well but smoked some when turned off. I know the pressure setting on this needs to be adjusted because it got changed by accident. I'm assuming there's some fuel not be atomized enough and collecting in there? Still, it didn't sputter like the Riello. Similar cause with different different results (sputtering vs. smoke)...or different causes and unrelated?


My biodiesel processor:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x270/dmmccurdy/BD/IMG_3840.jpg
January 08, 2009, 02:50 PM
heatbeater
Right now the only place I know is Patriot-Supply.com they carry numerous Riello and Beckett parts. I replaced the fuel pump on my Beckett burner with biofuel compatible pump made by Webster .(purchased from Patriot) I didn't want the seals to deterioate in the middle of winter . The orginal pump on the Beckett burner was made by Simtec. I don't know if the Webster pump will work on the Riello. Another place that might help you is Grainger.
January 08, 2009, 03:02 PM
Curdy
quote:
Originally posted by heatbeater:
Right now the only place I know is Patriot-Supply.com they carry numerous Riello and Beckett parts. I replaced the fuel pump on my Beckett burner with biofuel compatible pump made by Webster .(purchased from Patriot) I didn't want the seals to deterioate in the middle of winter . The orginal pump on the Beckett burner was made by Simtec. I don't know if the Webster pump will work on the Riello. Another place that might help you is Grainger.


Thanks, yes I am aware of the Webster pump. That's a fall back if I can't track down a seal kit for the current pump. Right now, that's really secondary though to main issue of not being able to run B100.
January 08, 2009, 03:19 PM
heatbeater
If the nozzles aren't plugging ,than it could be a cad eye sensor problem.
January 08, 2009, 03:34 PM
Curdy
quote:
Originally posted by heatbeater:
If the nozzles aren't plugging ,than it could be a cad eye sensor problem.


I would think that the CAD cell would be more of a complete shut down as opposed to a sputter?
January 08, 2009, 04:38 PM
paulb3
In reading some of the other posts about Beckett burners and the CAD cell it sometime just needs to be changed or adjusted becuase of the slightly different color of the biodiesel vs diesel.


quote:
Originally posted by Murphy: In short, this place is like a multi-dimensional bull$hit detector on steroids
January 08, 2009, 04:57 PM
Curdy
I've read that as well...but again, I thought it was a complete shut off that usually meant the CAD was the culprit. I'm getting either no fire or partial fire. Its not shutting down at all even at the B90 sputtering. Certainly something I will keep in mind though and I'll have it looked at.

Oh, and here's something worth mentioning. I had the burner cover off last night and I thought I heard a little slight sputtering. I replaced the cover and it seemed to go away. I don't have any pictures, but I'll take some tonight and you'll see how it changes the route of the air flow. Perhaps that makes a difference?
January 08, 2009, 05:12 PM
heatbeater
Your right. To the best of my knowledge the cad eye would cause a complete shut-down and you would have to reset the control.(at least that's the way my Beckett burner is). I'm in a similiar situation trying to use B100 in my furnace, but it appears to be more of a fuel quality problem, and my fuel appears to be under-reacted. I've had instances where my furnace would sputter on B100 and when I looked in the chamber the flame was weak and white. I switched to the HHO supply and everything is OK ,but I want to use my homebrew. Are you using washed and dried bio? Does your biodiesel shows any cloudyness in a clear soda bottle placed where your furnace and fuel storage is?
January 08, 2009, 05:33 PM
Curdy
quote:
Originally posted by heatbeater:
Your right. To the best of my knowledge the cad eye would cause a complete shut-down and you would have to reset the control.(at least that's the way my Beckett burner is). I'm in a similiar situation trying to use B100 in my furnace, but it appears to be more of a fuel quality problem, and my fuel appears to be under-reacted. I've had instances where my furnace would sputter on B100 and when I looked in the chamber the flame was weak and white. I switched to the HHO supply and everything is OK ,but I want to use my homebrew. Are you using washed and dried bio? Does your biodiesel shows any cloudyness in a clear soda bottle placed where your furnace and fuel storage is?


I should have mentioned that before. It is unwashed, but pretty darn clear. I wouldn't put it in my truck though with out dry washing it (which isn't set up yet). The feedstock had settled for several months and was dry.
January 08, 2009, 05:34 PM
heatbeater
Did you ever try running your biodiesel in your friends furnace? or his bio in your furnace to see if there was a difference in performance? It would help to determine fuel quality! If yours works good in his burner than I wouldn't think your bio is the problem. Unless there,s a problem with the fuel storage(temperature,dirt, and filtering,etc.)
January 08, 2009, 05:42 PM
heatbeater
I heard of other biodieselers using unwashed bio in their furnaces. I tried it without success,but like I mentioned before I'm dealing with under-reacted bio which poses a whole bunch of problems. Under=reacted fuel is harder to wash and dry. Also a dewatering procedure is critical before the actual reaction because water can greatly interfere with the reaction.
January 08, 2009, 08:35 PM
Curdy
quote:
Originally posted by heatbeater:
Did you ever try running your biodiesel in your friends furnace? or his bio in your furnace to see if there was a difference in performance? It would help to determine fuel quality! If yours works good in his burner than I wouldn't think your bio is the problem. Unless there,s a problem with the fuel storage(temperature,dirt, and filtering,etc.)


Funny you should say that because I was thinking the same thing. I already have a message out to him to get together to try it. I kinda feel like a knuckle head though because I already blended the remaining 135 gallons with heating oil...would have been good for me to save 5 gallons to test out. Side story is that I'm in the middle of switching oil tanks and running a new line to the boiler...so I need to figure out somewhere else to put the B70 so I can free up the reactor to make another batch. Still a work in progress here getting everything set up Smile

I'm running off of 5 gallon containers right now...PITA

Good news is that I just got in contact of someone through a friend that has all the proper testing equipment and is very familiar with the Riello 40.

I was also reading up on this and it may prove to be helpful also:

http://www.delavaninc.com/pdf/total_look.pdf
January 08, 2009, 10:50 PM
Jon Heron
I also have the Riello 40 burner. I have it running part time to heat my shop on B100 with no problems so far. I have the complete service manuals for this burner if you have any specific questions fire away.
I installed this burner used, into an ancient oil furnace in my shop. I took it apart and cleaned it all up before installing it and set the electrodes as per the manual but had to dampen the air down quite a bit to get it to fire.
If your electrodes are set properly, with the cover off put your hand over the air intake while its trying to fire and see if it will light up... That's what did it for me.
The only modification I have done so far is make a paper gasket for the strainer cover on the pump. I have had 0 cad cell issues and have not needed to increase the pressure. The Riello pump is all ready high pressure. I have not yet sourced out a bio compatible gasket kit but I have heard there is one available. The places that can leak are the pump and the air damper actuator which both just incorporate a couple of O-rings for seals so I am not concerned when the need arises. I have not experienced the infamous nozzle drip problem either, I believe because the Riello utilizes a solenoid to cut the supply.
Attached is a paper written by a Riello engineer on burning bio, posted by Coach George in a different thread... Just change the file extension from .txt to .pdf to view the pdf document.
Jon

Riello paper



___________________________

Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
January 08, 2009, 10:54 PM
Jon Heron
I should have said "washed" B100. I dry wash ala the GL push/pull. I would not run unwashed bio in my setup but that's just my opinion and like a$$ holes everyone has an opinion! Big Grin
Jon


___________________________

Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
January 08, 2009, 11:36 PM
Curdy
I've read their report, didn't really tell me anything i didn't already know though.

I want to know what ratio Riello was referring to in their study. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that approves more than a B20 blend...at least in the auto industry. So it would seem strange for them to test B100. But of course, I should take into account that its a European company and its a whole different ball game over there...

I originally planned on washing the fuel to be used in the heater...then I talked to several people that said they didn't bother. I may end up washing, haven't decided yet. I still have to set up my lead lag dry wash system.
January 09, 2009, 01:29 AM
heatbeater
curdy:I put the question up to the forum a couple of weeks ago about mist washing a 50/50 batch of unwashed biodiesel to HHO and they gave me the green light, so sometime I"m going to give it a try. Maybe I'll wait for you to try it first!!! Smile Are you getting some black crunchy stuff on the nozzle and electrodes,because I was and I'll bet you Jon doesn't using washed bio in his Riello.
January 09, 2009, 05:17 AM
imakebiodiesel
I have a Riello 40 burner on my central heating boiler and have been running it for 2 yeurs now on B90. It will run on B100 but I add 10 per cent kerosene to help the bio flow in cold weather.
I fitted the Riello biodiesel kit which composes of a replacement pump with all the seals and o rings in Viton, a viton lined flexible hose and a line filter with a viton gasket.
I had trouble sourcing the kit as the Irish distributor did not stock it and I had to phone Riello in Italy to order one. It came with instructions in Italian only and I had them translated. I can email a copy of the instructions to anyone who is interested.
One point to bear in mind is that you should disable the automatic air damper on the burner. This is actuated by a little piston on the side of the burner which contains a rubber diaphram which will dissolve quite quickly in biodiesel. Riello do not provide a viton replacement. The automatic damper makes only a very small difference to the efficiency on the burner so it is no problem to remove it.
The best way to install the kit is to get a boiler engineer to do it because he will have a pump pressure meter and a flue gas analyser. He can set the burner to run exactly right, avoiding problems later.
Another point to watch is that if the burner is set up with the cover removed, putting the cover on will change the air flow settings drastically.
January 09, 2009, 05:23 AM
imakebiodiesel
Partially reacted or unwashed biodiesel is not suitable for use in a Riello burner or any other burner for that matter. Even small amounts of caustic soda, soap or glycerine will ruin the spray nozzle in no time. If you want long term trouble free running use ASTM quality biodiesel with 10percent kerosene.
January 09, 2009, 09:03 AM
Jon Heron
Great advice IMB!
I would love a copy of those instructions.
I left the automatic damper connected for now, my manual shows that the piston that actuates it just has 2 O-rings instead of a diaphragm at least on my burner. The sole purpose of closing the damper is to stop heat loss through the burner/furnace and out the flue, most burners don't have this feature so I agree I see no worries in disconnecting it.
Jon


___________________________

Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
January 09, 2009, 09:27 AM
Curdy
Yes, I too would like a copy of the instructions please. You were able to order a kit directly from Riello? Do you recall what you paid for it?

Heatbeater, don't hold your breath on waiting for me to mist wash Smile Now dry wash with Purolite...then we're good. When I can get a little time to set up the system, I will certainly run a batch through right away for the burner.