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Tigman, good point, I didn't think about the possibility of the tubes sooting up. Would it really soot up completely since the tube is dead headed?

There is only one pot in the improved MEN stove:

Roger Sander's wast oil heater
 
Registered: May 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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yes 1 pot but 2 styles!! if you read thru the story he went from pot to inverted burner, and burning wmo he had best overall results with inverted burner... but the pictures look nasty to me either way...I too would like some pictures of the inside of gee dubs heater.. Tigman


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I read the article again and the Sanders's final burner is 1 conical dish made out of aluminum. It is not "inverted". The oil drips into the conical burner and as the flow increases, the diameter of the pool increases which increases the size of the flame. He called it "inverted cone or funnel of 12 degrees" but it is not operated inverted. Here's the diagram:

http://journeytoforever.org/media/r/rsBurner.gif

It can be confusing since the photos do not show the conical burner shape well.

quote:
Originally posted by tigman:
yes 1 pot but 2 styles!! if you read thru the story he went from pot to inverted burner, and burning wmo he had best overall results with inverted burner... but the pictures look nasty to me either way...I too would like some pictures of the inside of gee dubs heater.. Tigman
 
Registered: May 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't really see the improvement.. Its still a high maintenace piece of equipment.

Not only is it high maintenance, but you can't turn it on and off "on demand".. Oh ya, and its high maintenance..


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Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have tried 4 burner styles so far. First one was the 'inverted' aluminum cone. Basically I built it just like in the drawing only mine is 5" diameter--thats what I had laying around and my lathe jaws won't open up to six inches. I didn't like this burner because it was really hard to get it hot enough to get the oil to vaporize initially. He wasn't kidding about having to use a really large propane torch. I don't have a big torch so I used my hardware store propane torch and eventually got it going. The problem is that it cruds up within a day or two and the diameter of the oil pool shrinks and limits the amount of surface area. I also tried another 'dish' type burner. Basically it works on the same principle as the 'inverted' cone but its easier to make and easier to get lit. I took a piece of sheet metal cut it into a circle and beat it into a shallow dish about 7" diameter and about 1" deep. This was much easier to light since there was much less mass and the thermal conductivity is less. I heat it up on the stove good and hot, carry it out to the heater, put it in place, give it a few ounces of biodiesel, add a little more heat and it lights. Not the best results in my opinion but it works--it just cruds up too quickly.

I have also tried the pot style burners. The first one was right off the JTF site--6" diameter pipe 6" high with a plate welded on the bottom of it. Good amount of heat but it required the 'coal' to be removed every 5-7 days. I don't think with this style drip heater I'll ever be able to get away from the whole cleaning issue so I realize that it's something I'll have to live with.

On Monday I made a second revision to the pot burner. It is the also 6" diameter, 6" high but I drilled holes all around it for the flames to radiate out. I took some pictures and will post them here but while I was taking the pictures I noticed that the pot was glowing red--I don't ever recall the pot w/out holes ever getting that hot. Once again, this burner doesn't address the 'coal' issue, I just looking for ways to improve effeciency and make it burn cleaner. With this burner the temperature of air coming out of the heater increased about 20-30F with the same amount of oil. I still want to put in a damper but I went to two Menards and they were all out and Home Depot doesn't carry them in my area.

Oh yeah, I've been looking for a way to burn my supply of glycerin. I always thought it was hard to burn glycerin--its not as hard as I thought. I took 4 gallons and removed all the water and methanol because I use it for hand cleaner, and poured about 100mL down the air intake tube. That stuff burned like crazy--you could hear it actually roar. The access door on the bottom of the heater was even reverberating. Obviously I need to find a way to meter it in but I think I can do that with another solenoid. I also took the sheet metal dish and set it inside the heater and dumped some glycerine in it. Within a few minutes the glycerine self ignited and was burning. Remember this is without any methanol (the glycerine is KOH based and is thick like syrup). Anyone else burning glycerine in a burner like this?

Here are the pics:

Holey burner

Holey burner2

In the pictures you won't see the flames radiating out of the holes. This is because with the door open the combustion air is no longer coming down the air intake tube.
 
Location: Chicagoland | Registered: December 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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ok so you are saying that the pot holey or not is working best(you get x(3+) days 24hrs a day between cleans)?? Nothing in the pot "bolts or other items", is the picture deceiving or is the air intake close to the pot?? Tigman


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Gee_Dubya,

Thanks for the pics. The Sander's stove ran WMO mostly so it may behave differently with WVO. He only made one test run with WVO. The article did not report pool size shrinking due to coal buildup on WMO. Maybe the larger size of his "dish" made a difference?

Anyway how about using a wok as a burner? Walmart sells Teflon coated ones that are not that much $$. Make it as big as it will fit through the stove door at first and experiment. Leave it hole-less at first then drill some holes and see the difference. The Teflon may make it easier to clean but I don't know how long it will last. Just some ideas. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Gee_Dubya:
I have tried 4 burner styles so far. First one was the 'inverted' aluminum cone. Basically I built it just like in the drawing only mine is 5" diameter--thats what I had laying around and my lathe jaws won't open up to six inches. I didn't like this burner because it was really hard to get it hot enough to get the oil to vaporize initially. He wasn't kidding about having to use a really large propane torch. I don't have a big torch so I used my hardware store propane torch and eventually got it going. The problem is that it cruds up within a day or two and the diameter of the oil pool shrinks and limits the amount of surface area. I also tried another 'dish' type burner. Basically it works on the same principle as the 'inverted' cone but its easier to make and easier to get lit. I took a piece of sheet metal cut it into a circle and beat it into a shallow dish about 7" diameter and about 1" deep. This was much easier to light since there was much less mass and the thermal conductivity is less. I heat it up on the stove good and hot, carry it out to the heater, put it in place, give it a few ounces of biodiesel, add a little more heat and it lights. Not the best results in my opinion but it works--it just cruds up too quickly.

I have also tried the pot style burners. The first one was right off the JTF site--6" diameter pipe 6" high with a plate welded on the bottom of it. Good amount of heat but it required the 'coal' to be removed every 5-7 days. I don't think with this style drip heater I'll ever be able to get away from the whole cleaning issue so I realize that it's something I'll have to live with.

On Monday I made a second revision to the pot burner. It is the also 6" diameter, 6" high but I drilled holes all around it for the flames to radiate out. I took some pictures and will post them here but while I was taking the pictures I noticed that the pot was glowing red--I don't ever recall the pot w/out holes ever getting that hot. Once again, this burner doesn't address the 'coal' issue, I just looking for ways to improve effeciency and make it burn cleaner. With this burner the temperature of air coming out of the heater increased about 20-30F with the same amount of oil. I still want to put in a damper but I went to two Menards and they were all out and Home Depot doesn't carry them in my area.

Oh yeah, I've been looking for a way to burn my supply of glycerin. I always thought it was hard to burn glycerin--its not as hard as I thought. I took 4 gallons and removed all the water and methanol because I use it for hand cleaner, and poured about 100mL down the air intake tube. That stuff burned like crazy--you could hear it actually roar. The access door on the bottom of the heater was even reverberating. Obviously I need to find a way to meter it in but I think I can do that with another solenoid. I also took the sheet metal dish and set it inside the heater and dumped some glycerine in it. Within a few minutes the glycerine self ignited and was burning. Remember this is without any methanol (the glycerine is KOH based and is thick like syrup). Anyone else burning glycerine in a burner like this?

Here are the pics:

Holey burner

Holey burner2
 
Registered: May 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Gee_Dubya, nother question:

Is your air tube adjustable (height wise) or fixed? Are you forcing air in (i.e elec blower) or using natural draft? You probably mentioned it but I'm too lazy to read everything again.
 
Registered: May 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tigman--Yes the pot has worked the best so far. The holey pot seems to put out slightly more heat for the same amount of oil. I am not using anything in the pot--no bolts or other items. I have tried them in the past but they do not clean up just by shaking them around as advertized Frown The bottom of the air tube is approximataly 4" above the top of the pot.

Canolafunola--
No the air tube is not adjustable--it does not slide up or down. When I first built the heater the airtube was too short so I added a piece that is removeable so I guess if I wanted to I could make different length pieces and experiment. I remember that one of the guys on the JTF site mentioned that his air intake tube was too close and burnt back so I didn't want mine that close.

I am using natural draft and I actually restrict the amount of air coming in to about 1/3 of the 4" diameter tube. The only time I force the air in is when I'm starting it. That helps get things going faster. Once the heater is warmed up I shut the fan off. I found if I forced the air, the temp of heat going into my house dropped. I think I was pumping all the hot air out before it could transfer through the walls of combution chamber. That might change once I get a flue damper installed. I am going to another Menards today that should have them in stock.
 
Location: Chicagoland | Registered: December 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gee_Dubya -- I did a bit of testing using both the "bowl" (called "inverted V" in this discussuon ?) and a taller pipe length for the pot (the discussion is here). The length of pipe justs sits inside the tapered bowl (bottom of pipe is not closed) so the bottom bowl is easier to clean by simply lifting out the piece of pipe.

I also did some testing allowing air in at the BOTTOM of the pot, just above the fuel level. I did not then have a combustion air intake pipe installed from the top of the stove and have not tried this yet with this air intake installed so can't say how everything will react with air allowed into both the top and bottom of the pot.
Allowing air into the inside of the pot down low allowes more burning to take place inside the pot, it also causes more fuel vapor to evaporate from the fuel as the warm air is drawn in and across the fuel. This increased the heat output a LOT over a simple solid pipe-type pot. I suspect a few holes down low on your pot would react the same but you might want to set the pot inside another can in case fuel were to run out of the holes. That is sort of what I did as the bowl is larger in diameter than the pot, if fuel ends up outside the pot it simply burns in the pan and heats the outside of the pipe as well as the inside.

I have gotten distracted from testing this lower-air-input-into-pot idea further and am now testing using only the tapered lower pan as the burner, so far it works pretty much as is described in the Sanders heater article. I badly need to inprove my drip feed before I can do much more testing.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Gee-Dubya -- Just to clarify, are you burning veg exclusivly or are you also burning waste motor oil ? Wanting to verify your pipe pot DOES produce hard "coal" deposits even when burning veg, Murphy mentioned elsewhere that he did not think veg would do this but used motor oil would.

I finaly got a repeatable/reliable oil drip feed and have been testing the "bowl" heater more. I made up a 2-tier heater with one bowl above the other, this lights room temp veg without any preheat other than a few ounces of diesel for cold startup, it also vaporizes better due to the lower bowl keeping the upper bowl hot, and the bowl style does seem to produce less smoke than a pipe pot.

The bowl burners I am using don't make any hard "coal" at all burning veg exclusivly, the crud is soft and sort of foamy and scrapes out of the bowl easily. I have cleaned these every couple of days but there is not all that much crud produced in that much time, probably can go a lot longer but it is easy to remove the bowls from my wood stove so I have been cleaning them before lighting the fire for the evening.

I also don't have the oil pool being reduced in size by this ash, the ash is spotty over the burner bowl and the oil still covers the bowl between the clumps, the soft clumps seem to act like wicks and show flame from them also.

The bowls that I am using are made from 90/1000 sheet steel and the upper bowl is 6 3/4 inches in diameter, the lower bowl is 7 1/2 inches in diameter, they are 2 inches apart and there is a 2 1/4 inch air passage through the center of the upper bowl (1 1/4 inch tall piece of 2 1/4 inch OD exhaust pipe tube welded through bowl) to allow combustion air to reach the lower bowl from the stoves cold air intake tube.

My bowls are made from the removed ends of 20 pound B-B-Q size propane tanks but the round bowl-shaped disks from farm cultivators are easier to find and are made from about the same material, they are also available in many different diameters and bowl depths.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hey tim could you better explain your 2 tier burner?? 2 diff diameters I assume?? what spaces them apart!!!! etc I have been toying with making a cone type heater with a disc of steel 1/4" thick 6" diameter using my shop press centering it over a piece of 6" pipe and pressing directly in the center about 1/2" to 3/4" deep, but I have been listening to what others say... Jeff


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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The discussion about the double bowl burner is here.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tim--
I am burning WVO exclusively (with the exception of an occasional 200mL of demethed glycerol) and I do have coal deposits form in the pot burner. Seems like the last time I ran the bowl burner that my pool size shrank smaller and smaller due to the formation of deposits around the edges. I'd like to see some pics of your double burner when you get a chance.

One improvement that I have made recently was the preheating of my combustion air. My exhaust is 6” diameter so I put a piece of 8” diameter around it and came off the end with a tee and reduced it down to 4” and ran that into my combustion intake. So now my incoming combustion air is much hotter than before. I'll post a picture soon.
 
Location: Chicagoland | Registered: December 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee_Dubya:
Tim--
One improvement that I have made recently was the preheating of my combustion air. My exhaust is 6” diameter so I put a piece of 8” diameter around it and came off the end with a tee and reduced it down to 4” and ran that into my combustion intake. So now my incoming combustion air is much hotter than before. I'll post a picture soon.


I was going to do that.. but its low on my list so I have not got it done yet..

Did you see any effects from pre-heating the air?


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Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here are the pictures of what I did to preheat the combustion air. It's hard to tell how much it's helping due to the warmer temperatures in the midwest. I've had to turn it down alot to keep it from getting too hot inside--the other day it was 77F in the house and my wife was loving it. It seems like the day I installed the additional preheat ductwork that the air coming out of the heater and going into the house increased about 20 degrees. I'll have to get some more accurate number once it gets cold and stays cold. Here are the pics:

Intake preheater1

Intake preheater2
 
Location: Chicagoland | Registered: December 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Let me know how it works out.. Currently, my incoming air is preheated by design coincidence but its only getting up to about 100 degrees with a 40 deg ambient temperature. With a simple modification, I could probably get it to hit 240F. All I would have to do is to stop grabbing the air from the room and grab it from the heater itself.

The fan I am currently using is from a 150,000 btu home heating nat-gas furnace.. I run it on high and it gives me an 85 degree rise in temperature when blowing out the ducts.. The problem is I forgot if that 85 was with WMO or WVO.. There's a big difference in heat output between the two..

Anyhow.. Let me know if you see a difference.. cold wave coming Friday I think.. Guess it depends where you are located..


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Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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anybody hear how the heaters working out any changes, was the chimney to hot for Santa to get down?? Really curious how things are working out.... Tigman


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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No changes but I've found that I get better performance with the holey pot.

Unfortunately last week I got a notice that I need to have a permit from the building department. I guess someone complained to them that I had it in my garage so I might be selling it.

Anyone interested? This heater will heat my home (2 floors and the basement--approximately 3300 sq. ft.) until the outside temperature drops below somewhere between 25-30F. Below that, the regular furnace will kick on occasionally. I can go about 2 weeks between cleanings with the holey pot and I have a spare pot that just needs holes drilled in it.
 
Location: Chicagoland | Registered: December 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee_Dubya:

Unfortunately last week I got a notice that I need to have a permit from the building department. I guess someone complained to them that I had it in my garage so I might be selling it.


Why not just get the permit?


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Registered: March 09, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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