If you fill all your windows with 1 1/2 inch thick sheet styrophome, plus tape all the cracks securely, your house will take much less heat too.

The house on the concrete slab is tight but my old workshop house started out as a steam train switching station in 1875, not so tight, wood floor on crawlspace. Not too bad til the wind blows, the styrophome made it heatable, before that it was almost impossible to keep it warm.

i'm used to old buildings foam is good...tigman www.swainsspring.com

Sorry to hear you are still having flame outs.I finally got around to pretty much finishing mine.I was tired of fighting flow problems and hooked a pulsing chemical feed pump. This thing is nice, not only can you control pulse speed but you can control the stroke of the pulse to really tweak the flow.

I wrapped the heater in a 4' stick of 20" diameter
round duct.This allowed about 2" clearance all the way around. I fabricated a cap and mounted a small squirrel cage blower to the side in a opening then cut a 6" duct in the other side.
This works great at the lowest flow I get about 90 degrees out of the duct at about midway I get about 120 degrees and at about 75 percent flow I get 160 degrees out of the duct. This is about all the oil I would pump in it due to the start of heavy smoke from the flue.
Here are some pics please be nice this is my first build...........

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Scott C.,

I have noticed that I need to add another 6" duct opening on the opposite side of the furnace. I have alot of heat building up in in spot.

NICE You suck...first build?? God i thought I made nice stuff... go back through the entire section...God I thought I was anal...you rock nice setup....Tigman

Is that metering pump from omega or something you had or where did you get it?? Whats the freon tank on wall behind heater any part of system?? Tigman

The pump I got from work they were about to be thrown away because the wouldnt pump. I took them apart they were clogged with the chemical they had been pumping(water treatment chemicals).
Grainger stocks these pumps under the name Pulsafeeder max feed is 12 gallons a day.
They will pump against 150 psi.
I am a HVAC technician hince the freon bottle I use it for the oil storage tank. I cut the bottom out of it and flipped the bottom upside down and hammered it back inside the other half.
So it acts as a funnel or bowl if you will of course I drilled a hole in it .
Had to use these old freon jugs for something!!!

Thanks thats cool for pump unit...jeff

Scott C. - Lookin good - nothing wrong with that.

metering pump -- Yes, I think this is the first thing that is required to get a reliable burn from a drip stove, especially with a very low fuel feed. The fuel feed needs to be very consistant when running a small flame, the only way I have ever gotten a reliable fuel feed is with the speed controlled gear motor turning a small gear pump, a needle valve drip just can't be consistant with all the variables of fuel level, temp changes, crud in fuel ect.

Flameouts -- Still working on this, I think the new 2-quart burner unit is fine but my flame detection is not quite worked out yet. I have relocated the flame sensor about 3 inches lower down on the burner tank, this puts the optical sensor about 1/4 inch above the top of the 1-quart burner and 5/8 inch above the 2-quart burner, this should allow further testing of either burner unit.

One dramatic improvement of this new cleaner burning 2-quart unit is in the amount of smoke coming from the chimney. The 1-quart burner was pretty good for smoke, you didn't notice it unless you were looking directly at the chimney, you did see an obvious amount of smoke but not a lot, just continuous wisps of black smoke with a few soot flakes. The smoke from the 2-quart burner is only about a third as much smoke as the 1-quart burner, you have to watch the top of the chimney closely to even see it, there will even be several seconds where you don't see any smoke at all, then there will be a bit of very thin black smoke for a few seconds, then less, then more, etc. This is with the same fuel feed for both burners. It all has to do with the amount of air reaching the burner, I am running the 2-quart burner with the 3 inch combustion air tube totally open and the flue damper set half open. any of the other burners would flame out with this much air flow through the stove, especially with a small flame.

I ran the 2-quart burner at less than 1/2 pint/hr for several hours using these damper settings with no problem. The flame was a bright light yellow, the outer burner tank temp was 120 degrees f, I could hold my hand directly on the tank for a couple seconds, I could also hold my hand on the flue pipe just above the stove, and just prior to the flue damper, for about 5 seconds, and I could hold my hand on the 90 degree turn into the chimney, about 3 ft above the stove, continuously. I have never before been able to run any of the other burners at this low a temp and this much airflow, ever.

Once the stove is up to temp I open up the combustion damper completely, then slowly open up the flue damper. With the flue damper closed a good bit the flame is a cherry red and flickering slowly, as the flue damper is opened up the flame turns from red to orange, then yellow, at some point I can hear the fuel droplets sizzle as each one hits the hot bottom of the burner, this is almost, but not quite, the sweet spot. As the flue damper is opened up just a bit more the flame begins to flicker at a much faster and more consistant rate, not a flicker realy, looks sort of like a waterfall of fire rising vertically, mostly a solid sheet of fire with tiny flikering verietions rather than slow flickers. the sound also changes, the sizzle of the individual drops changes to an almost continuous sizzling sound, this is the sweet spot, cleanest burn yet, almost no smoke, very little sooting, probably will be a bit of coal in the burner if it runs continuously for a few days, haven't got there quite yet but getting there.

Even though the flue damper is more open and allowing more heat to go up the chimney the outer burner tank temperature is actually 10-20 deg f hotter than with a cherry red flame, this is due to a bright yellow flame being several hundred degrees hotter than a cherry red flame. A cherry red color is someplace between 1200 to 1400 deg f, light yellow should be someplace around 1900 deg f.

When relocating the flame sensor I reduced the viewing hole from 1/4 inch diameter to 1/8 inch. The 1/8 inch hole will reduce the amount of smoke reaching the sensor during cold startups, and since I moved the sensor out to 2 inches of clearance from the side of the burner tank the flame image is well over 1 inch wide on the face of the heat shield, it is not as bright as the image from the 1/4 inch hole but it is bright enough for the sensor.

The 1/8 inch hole allows more than enough brightness for the sensor but it turned out that the inside end of the hole gets completely clogged over with soot in about 6-7 hours, once this happens the sensor looses the light and shuts the fuel pump off - bummer. -so- I am now testing a different type of viewing hole. I drilled and tapped the burner tank wall so that a 3/8 bolt could be screwed through it. I shortened a couple of soft 3/8 bolts to 3/8 and 1/2 inch long to make a couple viewing hole inserts. I drilled an 1/8 inch hole long ways through the center of the bolts, then counterboared a bigger hole back from the threaded end, this counterbore stops about 1/8 inch short of drilling completely through the bolt, this leaves an 1/8 inch long by 1/8 inch diameter hole on the hex head end of the bolt.

The idea here is that the air inside the burner tank is being cooled as it contacts the inside of the tank, as it cools, a thin layer of this cooler air, plus the smoke it is carrying, sinks down along the inside of the burner tank wall, as the smoke passes over the edge of the 1/8 inch hole some of the soot gets caught and slowly builds up and seals over the hole. By screwing the larger drilled bolt through the side of the tank the much longer bolt protrudes further into the interior of the tank, hopefully the larger opening in the end of the bolt should be well past the layer of sinking air, and hopefully this will keep the soot from collecting over the end of the bigger hole in the end of the bolt.

I eyeballed the center of the bolt and used a drill press to do the drilling, did ok on one bolt but got a little off center on the shorter one. I counterbored first with a 13/64 drill, this leaves a wall thickness heavy enough that the bolt threads won't crack off when the bolt is tightened through the side of the burner tank, I then opened up the hole in the end of the bolt with a 1/4 inch drill to make as big of a hole as possible so it will be harder for soot to clog it up.

I just installed the 1/2 inch long insert with the 1/4 inch inside opening a few hours ago so don't yet know how well this is going to work.

By making the hole throught the tank longer than just the thickness of the tank wall I also nerrowed the viewing angle of the light hitting the flame sensor, it is now looking mostly at the center of the burner rather than the entire interior of the tank, don't yet know if this will make any differance to the flame sensor, probably not, but it sure reduced the size of the flame image that was being projected on the wall behind the stove.

This picture shows the big holes in the threaded end of the inserts.

end_view_-_big_hole.JPG (14 Kb, 32 downloads)

This shows the head end of the bolts with the 1/8 inch viewing hole.

1-8_inch_hole_end_of_inserts_with_info__.JPG (23 Kb, 32 downloads)

This picture has a bit more info.

bolt_inserts_with_measurments.JPG (15 Kb, 33 downloads)

hey is that pump a 4up25 or a 4up26...Can you shut it down as low a Tims can be?? My stove is near identical to yours except outside is auger tube also I have about 300 little tabs welded to inner tank to help spread heat...Tigman

Tim,
Sounds like you have just about got it right now. When you are referring to the 2 qt burner is it the dog dish or a regular bowl any pics of this exact burner.I am interested in a cleaner burn.

Tigman,
The pump is the 4up26 and I can get down it sounds just as low I had leaving air yesterday of 85 that was the stroke rate at zero and the pump rate at 60 per minute. You can seriously tweak this pump flow with this pump!

I was just reading through your post again and I have to say it sounds very impressive and hopeful. I am having issues with getting alot of heat at the same time low smoke . What recommendations to you have? I know we have said before that distance from burner to combustion air really doesnt matter
but what kind of distance or you running . This 2 qt bowl what or the dimensions roughly? I really need to get mine running more efficient.

I have been running mostly WMO and have decided to run straight WVO but have noticed it takes much more to light it and get it going.

I've been enjoying the discussion off-line for a while, so I thought I'd add my 2c. Distance matters only so far as it helps pre-heat fuel and air. Recent experiments with my wood-stove gizzy have shown that a direct stream of air around the combustion bowl creates lots of soot. Re-drilling holes above the combustion zone, where additional air reduces soot, helps a lot. I feel like we're approaching the Turk burner design inside a furnace. When I modified the pot burner to swirl the combustion air, the chimney soot and burner pot residue dramatically reduced. Now I'm trying the same approach inside the woodstove, with interesting results.
I examined the insides of a Beckett (home heating oil burner) fuel pump, and confirmed that it uses an internal gear pump, so it's likely to work at low rpm.
My stove-top burner uses a gravity feed and needle valve arrangement to control speed. I don't trust it when I'm away, unless I limit the amount of oil in it to about 1-hour worth. That way, a thermal run away won't burn my barn down.

quote:

Originally posted by johno:
I've been enjoying the discussion off-line for a while, so I thought I'd add my 2c. Distance matters only so far as it helps pre-heat fuel and air. Recent experiments with my wood-stove gizzy have shown that a direct stream of air around the combustion bowl creates lots of soot. Re-drilling holes above the combustion zone, where additional air reduces soot, helps a lot. I feel like we're approaching the Turk burner design inside a furnace. When I modified the pot burner to swirl the combustion air, the chimney soot and burner pot residue dramatically reduced. Now I'm trying the same approach inside the woodstove, with interesting results.

Sounds very interesting but I am a bit confused I like the idea of the holes. The turk style is definetly the best burner .Where I am confused is are you bringing the combustion air directly on top of the burner. Can you illustrate.

hey scott how about picts of burn chamber door open etc..?? tigman

Tigman,

I will take some pics tomorrow and post them. Maybe you guys can give me some advise once you see them.

I am still refining the viewing port for the flame sensor. The 1/8 inch hole allows enough light to the sensor but it gets covered with soot quickly, even the latest insert clogged with soot in a few hours. I even drilled it out to a 3/16 inch opening and it still clogged with soot. The original 1/4 inch hole never did clog with soot but let way too much heat get to the flame sensor. I am about to try another idea. I have a 3/8 inch viewing hole drilled through the front of the stove, it is about a foot above the burner so I can look down and see the bottom of the burner bowl. This hole never completely clogs with soot. I placed the flame from my BBQ lighter close to this hole when the burner was going, the flame got immediately sucked through the hole into the stove. I think this is why it stays clear of soot, there is a good amount of draft through the hole that keeps removing the soot from the edge of the hole, the 1/8 and 3/16 openings just don't allow enough air flow to keep the hole clean.

I don't want the heat from a large hole to get to the flame sensor but I still need a larger hole to keep it clean. My next test is to thread the hole in the stove to accept a 1/4 inch pipe thread, I will screw a 1/4 inch pipe "T" into the hole on the outside of the stove, the side opening of the "T" will point down, this will be the main opening to allow air to flow through the "T". I will screw a reducer bushing or drilled pipe plug into the outer end of the "T", this will be what the flame sensor looks through. I found a 1/4 to 1/8 inch reducer that has a 1/4 inch hole through it, this will be my first try. If the hole through the side of the stove stays clear I may drill an 1/8 inch hole in a 1/4 inch pipe plug and use that for the flame sensor viewing opening. This approach should let plenty of air flow through the hole to keep it clear of soot but still allow a small hole for the flame sensor to look through. The small hole to the sensor should keep it from overheated and keep soot from coating it during cold start "chuffing" of the stove.

Scott - Look half way down page 6 of this discussion, you will find pictures, with dimensions, of the 3 burner units I have tested recently.

Distance from combustion air outlet to burner - I am finding that this DOES make a differance, the top edge of the 2-quart burner is 5 inches below the air outlet, the bottom of the burner bowl is about 7 1/2 inches below the air outlet tube, this setup is working best of all, the other burner units are up to 2 inches taller and won't allow nearly as much air to be added down the combustion air pipe or they blow out.

Heat and smoke -- This is a balancing act, I am finding that if I set my dampers for least amount of smoke I loose heat up the chimney, I also get occasional flameouts, if I set the dampers for max heat, by slowing down the amount of air through the stove, the burner stays lit but I get a bit more smoke. you have to find someplace among the damper settings that you can live with. For now I am running with a bit more smoke as the outer burner tank temperature stays about 30 degrees warmer than when set for min smoke, the flame is still a fairly bright yellow so not a lot of soot is being created, I don't have the damper settings all worked out yet as I have only had this 2-quart burner unit running for a couple days.

Do you have a exhaust flue damper on your stove ? one of these will limit the amount of heat going up the chimney and the stove will produce way more heat, I can feel the differance as soon as I adjust the damper. Having both a ingoing combustion air control and an outgoing flue damper gives you much more control over the burner than just one damper.

Starting a cold stove -- I don't try to start directly on the thicker oil, I blend up starter fuel using 90% diesel mixed with 10% E85 ethanol fuel (yellow HEAT methanol will work too but the alcohol won't stay mixed, you have to re-mix it each time before use), this allows ignition from a normal BBQ lighter. I pour about a half cup of this startup fuel into the burner, start the fuel drip, then light the start-up fuel. You will have to experiment with the amount of start-up fuel to use to allow one charge to get your stove up to temp, uou don't want to pour more start-up fuel into a hot burner, the top of my hand is just now healing up from making that mistake, new better but got in a hurry.

What is the base unit of your heater, was it a water heater or some other tank. Mine is made from a 100 pound propane tank so is a bit smaller than a water heater.


johno -- I cussed gravity feed for a couple years, tried MANY versions, never did get one to feed a steady drip reliably, that is why I went with the slow-turning gear pump approach.

Becket fuel pump -- This style gear pump is what I am using, suntec brand, turning it slowly with an an old auto windshield wiper motor powered from an adjustable DC power supply, VERY steady fuel control from none-to-way-too-much. I posted lots of info and pictures about this metering pump setup starting on page 3 of this discussion.

WMO - I dought you will ever get this to burn smoke-free in a drip-style burner, nobody else seems to be able to do it either. Vegoil burns MUCH cleaner so it makes a lot less smoke.

Tim
Are you still using the barametric control and what is your results of using this. I am in the process of building my heater. I will be using a 100lb propane bottle for the burner. I will be bringing the air pipe down the center and the flue pipe out the back side since there is not enough room for both. Do I need a 4" air pipe or can I go smaller, and should I install a damper or the draft control or both. I am looking for the most effiency and most control of the heat. Brad