BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Biodiesel For Heating    3rd oil heater so far, this one is based on the Sanders heater concept.
Page 1 ... 19 20 21 22

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
3rd oil heater so far, this one is based on the Sanders heater concept.
 Login/Join
 
member
posted Hide Post
tigman - Some questions -

From your pictures it looks like your air intake tube is 3 inches in diameter, does it have the same diameter from top to bottom?

How far above the top of the burner bowl does the end of the air tube stop, I find 4-5 inches works best in both my stoves.

The diameter of the outer heat exchanger casing looks to be something like 14 inches, what is the diameter of the actual inner stove casing? this stove looks to be about the smallest diameter unit I have seen and it is fairly tall for the diameter, not sure how this will effect air flows?

You state that the fire from the burner is flowing horizontally away from the side of the burner pot nearest the horizontal flue outlet, sounds like you are flowing a LOT more air through the stove than I do.

90 deg air inlet - I also have a 90 deg bend (two 45's) in the 3 inch air inlet pipe on my 24/7 house stove and it works fine, I dought it is causing you any of your problems.

The hotter the stove burns the cleaner it will be. My 24/7 house stove is only burning just over a pint/hr in this winters not-that-cold temps, the temp of the outer casing adjacent to the flame runs about 275-300 deg f and the top of the casing is about 170-180 deg f, these cool temps allow the burner to crud up a good bit, if I clean the bowl once a day I get only a bit of hard easily removable coal in the bowl but I have gotton lazy and only clean it every 3 days. By 3 days the quart bowl is completely full of crud and the bottom half of the crud is a gooey past that is like soft tar, the upper portion of the bowl is crusty. This choked bowl still burns ok and puts out heat but burns maybe 20 deg f cooler than a cleaned bowl. The temp is measured on the outer surface of stove casing adjacent to the flame.

Winters temps over the last few years were colder so I was burning the house stove a bit harder than I am now, the burner stayed far cleaner with even moderately higher stove temps.

I suspect the outer air casing and forced air cooling of your stove is causing a lot of your durty burn, the stove is just not getting hot enough internally at your present fuel rate to burn clean, no magic fix for this with a simple drip burner except maybe more fuel?

Bowl cleaning - I set the choked bowl over on to a temperary steel shelf near the top of my vertical top loading wood stove while it is still flaming, once it burns out and cools I add a bit of 90% diesel/10% E85 startup fuel to the choked bowl and light it off, this burns off most of the tar stuff. I then clean most of the crud out of the bowl onto a bit of paper/wood in the wood stove and do another startup burn, this second burn dries the bowl out completely and it only takes a couple minutes more to fully clean it.

Soot - Even with my current less-than-efficient low burn I only scoop about a half gallon of soft dry fluffy soot out of the bottom of the stove every couple weeks. Each time I put a clean bowl in the stove I add about a half inch of 90% diesel/10% E85 startup fuel in it and light it up. This is enough volitile fuel to get the inside of the stove hot enough to ignite the soot clinging to the inner surface of the tank and flue and burn it away. At my 3 day clean bowl interval there is not enough time for a huge amount of soot to build up so the burning soot does not cause a realy hot thermal runaway in the stove, the outer casing does raise to around 450 deg f near the burner bowl and this lasts for maybe 10 minutes before the temp starts dropping back down to the normal 275-300 deg f temp.

I do a similar soot burn off in the horizontal stove at each startup, there I fill the back of the firebox with crumpled newspaper and cardboard as well as the half inch of startup fuel in the bowl, with the flue damper completely open this creates enough heat to burn off the internal soot as well as heat the longer 10 ft up/down run of 6 inch diameter flue pipe and brick chimney enough to get a good draft started through the cold stove.

Horizontal stove - This is located in a 135 year old uninsulated house that I use as my shop, it takes far more burn to heat this drafty old house plus I only burn the stove whene I am there so I have to burn it HARD for the first 3-4 hours to get the house warmed up. This horizontal stove has a fire brick lined fire box and takes 45 min to an hour to get hot enough to burn efficiently. Once the house and stove are warmed up I burn about a quart/hr of veg. The fire box temps in this stove are hot enough that it burns very clean once up to temp (some of the cast iron innerds have even slumped from the heat over the years), I realy do not have any but the smallest amount of coal, and no real crud, in the bowl no matter how long the stove burns. When I turn the stove drip off I let the flame burn out, takes only a couple minutes, there will be a light layer of RED HOT GLOWING crud in the bowl once the flame goes out, I open both the air inlet damper and the flue damper wide open at this point to get as much air as possible flowing through the stove, the crud in the burner pot glows a much brighter red and I can watch it burn away with a bright red glow over maybe another 5 minutes. Once this red glow is gone the SS dog bowl looks almost clean except for the obvious high temp discoleration and a very thin tiny bit of what looks like soot on the vertical sides of the bowl.

The horizontal stove has a smaller diameter air inlet tube made from 2 1/4 inch exhaust pipe, the smalled diameter tube creates a bit higher air velocity into the top of the bowl. Not sure just what effect this has, even when burning at a quart/hr I have to put a large washer with a 1 inch diameer center hole over the top of the air inlet to keep the flame in the pot from pulsating due to to much air.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Tim mine has 4" intake full way 12" 10 gauge burn chamber with a heat dome 14" outer chamber
I am not where I can measure it but I beleive burn chamber is about 48 inches overall..heat dome maybe top 6"... all of the crud I have cleaned out basical falls out have pict of 2 bowls on my drop box post on page 20...I am pretty sure the air flow in the stove is cooling the burn pot fast as it heats up so i am adding a 1/4" x 4 1/2" alum circle directly below the dish on my ins wool for some heat mass..Prob not much chance to mess around for a few days Grandkids comin Smile look at pict of 30 hr burn you can tell exactly how the horizontal flame goes to one side of bowl just by deposits on rim...HMMM Best burn most clinkers pic I did nothing other then dump the clinkers out no mechanical cleaning or wiping HMMM

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tigman,


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
40 inch tall burn chamber 4" heat dome....outer heat exchanger case 48" tall


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
4 inch diameter air intake - This size tube will flow WAY WAY more air than the stove will ever need even if burning a half gallon of used motor oil per hour. At a quart/hr of veg I restrict my air intake down using a washer over the tube that has only a round 1 inch opening, used motor oil needs more air than veg but even whan I burn that I only slide the washer sideways enough such that the 1 inch opening plus an additional 1/2 inch crescent of air space is open.

The larger the tube diameter is the slower the air stream moves through it and the less concentrated the air is as it flows down into the burner bowl. The one quart burner bowl I am using is only about 5 inches in diameter at the upper rim, not sure just how a 4 inch columb of air dropping down into the small burner bowl would push the flame around, if you don't have the bowl precicely centered under the air tube the flame will likely be pushed all to one side. From testing verious burner configurations I find that if a faster flowing smaller diameter columb of air is directed down into the center of the burner bowl the flames are pushed horizontally out toward the stove casing around the full diameter of the burner, this allows more heat to be transfered into the casing as the hot gasses flow upwards against the inside of the stove casing wall.

Something to try - Make up a temporary removable cap that fits over the bottom end of the 4 inch air tube such that you can drop different sized inserts into it with verious sized holes in there center, try one size and move the burner closer/farther from the end of the air tube and see what works better, then try a different size.

I don't know if a smaller hole in a flat plate will direct the air in the same way as a length of smaller tubing but you might also try adding verious lengths of smaller tubing to the insert such that it extends up inside the 4 inch air tube and see if a length of tube directs the air stream any better than just a smaller hole in a flat plate.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Yes I have been thinking VENTURI effect... I figure for sure 4 inch air intake and 6 flue would be plenty of air,the old stove worked but now it's gone so I cant go back LOL! I havent messed with it this weekend But I know as soon as I close the butterfly intake at all the flame gets lazy and week. I think the bowl full of clinkers actually held heat and changed the air flow that made it burn better.


wvo is no longer waste when we harness it's power!!!
 
Location: simms montana | Registered: August 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I have had a strange problem develop on my heater and wonder if anyone could advise...

I started using a new batch of WMO fuel a while ago, which was around when the problem started. Around the same time I fitted a different burner bowl and added some rolled stainless mess in the bottom of the bowl.

Originally, it would take around 20 minutes from lighting, to get it burning well, settled and producing good heat - never any 'chufffing'. Now it takes much longer and it has started for the first time to make rapid 'chuffing' noises. Basically it seems to burn in a series of minor explosions, which pressurises the burner expelling combustion gases out into the room. The only way to stop it, is to turn the air inlet damper down a bit. After the first hour, I can open the damper fully and it burns fine.


Harry Bloomfield
 
Registered: February 12, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
When lighting my veg drip stoves when cold I also have to stop down the inlet air a bit to stop the chuffing, I can open them back up to normal once the stove heats up, something like 7-10 minutes of burning. It may be that the flammability of this batch of WMO is different than the last, either because the weight of the oil is lighter/heavier, or it has a bit of diesel or gasoline mixed in? I know my stoves burn normal used veg far better than they do straight diesel.

Do you hear any "sizzling" from the pot, sizzling usually means water or antifreeze in the fuel, either of these can cause flameouts and weird burning.

May be that the extra mass added to the burner is taking longer to heat up than just the basic pot, I have done just the opposite by using a thin SS three dollar 1 quart pet food bowl setting on compressed wood ashes for insulation, no part of the burner bowl touches anything but the ashes and air. This allows the pot to stay hot enough to stay lit even when burning even VERY SMALL amounts of fuel.

Still having to burn the home stove a bit, VERY low setting of something like 1/3-1/2 cup/hr, the outer casing directly next to the flame measures 165 deg f, Suntec metering pump is being turned at 20 sec/rev.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I lost my biggest account this summer, 15 cubies every three weeks. Now if I cant find more wvo I may have to be burning some propane. Wanted WVO!!! LOL.


97 powerstroke wvo two tank hih heated filter mallory fi110 veg pump looped return on veg
02 vw jetta two tank hih davco filter greace car suply& retun valve webasto parking heater(block heater)
home heated with wvo clean burn drip heater as of 10/01/12 drip heater in storage. Low WVO supply, back to burning wood.
 
Registered: October 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Well it's that time of year again. I went back to burning solid fuel(wood)again and put the old oil burner in storage. Are any of you seasoned drip heater guys still heating with wvo? I hope to be burning oil next winter if I can get enough oil. As for this year my house is warm but my back is sore!


97 powerstroke wvo two tank hih heated filter mallory fi110 veg pump looped return on veg
02 vw jetta two tank hih davco filter greace car suply& retun valve webasto parking heater(block heater)
home heated with wvo clean burn drip heater as of 10/01/12 drip heater in storage. Low WVO supply, back to burning wood.
 
Registered: October 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Hi all,
I wonder if anyone is familiar with or has tried the adding a "bell" to achieve higher combustion temp before it exhaust through the chimney.
The mod would be very easy to add to Sanders type design, basically insert the 6" chimney pipe 1-20" into the water heater so the combustion gases would form layers at the top of the water heater (bell) allowing to exhaust only the cooler fractions.
this principles have been implemented succesfully in masonrey heaters and rocket type heaters.
I don't want to reinvent the wheel so therefore I am asking in case someone already tried.
A second option is to add a second tank with an exhaust at the bottom to act as a bell while adding extra surface for heat radiation.

http://www.stove.ru/index.php?lng=1&rs=16.

great thread! thanks!
 
Location: NY | Registered: December 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I have found that something like restricts the Flo of air causing soot to build up.


97 powerstroke wvo two tank hih heated filter mallory fi110 veg pump looped return on veg
02 vw jetta two tank hih davco filter greace car suply& retun valve webasto parking heater(block heater)
home heated with wvo clean burn drip heater as of 10/01/12 drip heater in storage. Low WVO supply, back to burning wood.
 
Registered: October 18, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Hi all,
I built my MEN-Sanders-Tim c Cook heater from a 40gallon gas water heater (15"dia., 48" tall)
3" air intake, and 4" chimney pipe. I use a N.10 can but I put rockwool cause I don't have any ashes around.
WVO and I am aiming at slow burn rates like Tim Cook. Is my 4" flu going to be a problem?
It seems Tim C. leaves only 1" air intake so I thought 4" flue would be enough
I am having some trouble getting started.
My door doesn't close tight at all so I use aluminum tape to close it, at some point the heater got pretty hot (210F 6' up the flue my IR thermomether max out at 220F), and started puffing all the tape in and out. I will try to weld a frame tomorrow and get the door to close tight.

Can someone give some hints on how to start it? less air, more air than 1"?

I use a needle valve that i modify the seat...I measure a fast drip equal almost a qt/h cold. the valve is 4feet away and it doesn't get even warm. I already order a peristaltic dosing pump should be here in a few days.

How do you check to make sure bowl does not overfill with oil and spill?
Great thread ...just trying to get the hang of it.
thanks!
 
Location: NY | Registered: December 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



Member
posted Hide Post
Hi again,
I got it running well,....
still struggling to learn proper air inlet to fuel ratio.

I have 12 feet of 4" chimney pipe total; 6' inside the house and 6' over the roof.

So far my guess is that if I open the air more I get a wither (bluesish tints sometimes) flames, but also too much makeup air takes the heat out through the chimney. Too little air and a litle black smoke is visible from the chimney but more heat stay in the room.

Has anyone made some correlations fuel/h= air intake?

I have started as a reference with the 1" washer opening described by Tim Cook,...it seems a bit small but for the lowest rates.

I am still on a needle valve so measuring rates its a bit of a guess...
I will get my dosing pump in a few days and will try to post some numbers
 
Location: NY | Registered: December 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Some sort of accurate fuel control I found was essential, a needle valve just didn't hack it for mine. The problem is the flow rate is so very variable, due to the rapid temperature variations of the fuel - so some sort of pump I found was essential.

An accurately reproduceable flow rate, also helps prevent the bowl filling with unburnt fuel, but I went one stage further on the prevention...

For a pump, I used an air conditioning condensate pump - an Aspen Universal peristaltic, which has built in hot and cold remote sensors. Place the hot one near the stove, the cold one further away and the pump will only pump oil while the hot is warmer than the cold sensor. There is a test button to bypass the sensor system, so it will run for a few minutes to start it off. A peristaltic pump produces a very reproduceable output quantity of fluid in a given running time period - I think this one is rated around 6L per hour. If the oil does not instantly vapourise, the bowl would start to fill up, the flame dies and the heater quickly cools down - as does the sensor, so the pump stops pumping oil. A peristaltic pump has rollers around the end of the motor shaft, which trap a very flexible bit of pipe against a cover, forcing the fluid to rotate through the pipe. In on the input out on the output.


6L per hour is far too much, so to that I added a control system - basically a 555 timer IC, set for a 60 second period, with its output triggering a mains relay. I can set that for a on to off period with a potentiometer of from 0% to 100%. Usually it needs around 20% duty cycle, around 10 to 15 seconds running, each minute. I have the pump mounted at the highest point, so should there be a leak it simply draws air in, but I failed to take account for what did happen below...

It works very well indeed, and did so until a few weeks ago when I used the stove to securely dispose of a large pile of documents, with the oil running. It burned so well that the stove was glowing red as was the air tube down from the top, with the copper oil feed pipe in its centre. The copper oil feed pipe got so hot, that the oil burnt inside the copper pipe and gradually blocked the pipe up solid.

The pump carried on regardless and eventually blew its soft pump pipe with a pop, blowing oil everywhere. Peristaltic pump pipe now replaced and the copper pipe cleaned out with a drill bit, but I'm still cleaning up the mess in my workshop.

My latest bowl arrangement is a deep rounded bottom stainless mixing dish, with some rolled up stainless steel mesh placed across its width, sat on wood ashes and burning WMO. The oil dribbles onto the mesh and insstantly vapourises, if it builds up a pool of oil something is wrong or the burner is still in its warm up phase.

As a means to quickly control the air flow into the burner, I made a butterfly valve (like an old fashioned carburetter butterfly valve) at the top of the air inlet pipe. I need to use it when ever I have to open the front door, to prevent smoke rising up the air tube. I also use it to damp the airflow down, should the burner start to flutter other than that, it seems to work best wide open.


Harry Bloomfield
 
Registered: February 12, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
thanks for the reply Harry,
so if I read properly 6L/h at 20% you are feeding 1.2L/h...1-1/4qt with the air completly open. do you habe a 3" or 4" air pipe?

I m confused Tim was reporting a 1" air opening to burn up to a qt/h....
1" diameter equals 3.1sq in
3" diameter equals 28sq in

thats a really big difference.

Harry do you close the throtle to start up?

I feel like mine goes off if i open the air all the way....I thought too much air robs temp from the bowl.
I'll keep trying
thanks
 
Location: NY | Registered: December 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
My heater is a fairly small version. I have a 2.5" diameter airpipe down the centre and a square flue around 3.5" square, rising about 6 feet. The air pipe is adjustable, it simply drops into a matching sized hole in the stove top, with a pair of back to back Jubilee clips to set the height. It seems to work best, with the end of the air tube level with the top edge of the bowl - then the air flow blows the flame out to the sides of the stove.

It is far from an ideal arrangement, but it works reasonably well to provide heat in my garage and small workshop. The actual stove, is an old converted LPG steel bottle about 18" tall, with an hinged door cut in the side of it. If and when a taller bottle turns up, I will install it.

To get things going, I set the pump to run 100% until it begins to flood the bowl, then back it down to about 30%. To light it, I use a Beumatic(sp?) gas torch and play it on the rolled up mesh in the bowl. I have to close the air damper butterfly initially to prevent the flame being blown out, then gradually as the flame establishes itself, open it up. Once established, I can open the damper wide. My original unit, had a rather longer air pipe than was strictly needed and I found some improvement last year, by shortening it - the longer the pipe, the more it restricts air flow through it. The air in does have to be restricted, to ensure the stove has at least some level of vacuum inside it to prevent it spilling fumes into the room.

I've been toying with an idea to add a second air inlet pipe horizontally, close to the burner bowl height, but entering at an angle. My idea was to have the air passing through that, to cause the flame to swirl around the combustion chamber. Something like a bit of 1.5" pipe, with a means to adjust the flow through it.

When I first built it, I tried using WVO, but had problems with it being too thick. I also once also tried waste hydraulic oil last year, but that seemed to be attacking the rubber tube of the peristaltic pump.

I know of three other waste oil burners in my area...

One is in a commercial car repair which uses a commercially made waste oil burner unit, burning their own WMO. Another is in a similar situation, again burning WMO, but it just gravity feeds the oil into a cast iron stove from a small tank just outside at the other side of the wall. He doesn't need to worry too much about creating foul smelling smoke.

The third one is a friend of mine, who had used a pot belly stove to burn waste wood and spent hours chopping it for his stove. He works at a place where he has access to lots of waste hydraulic oil, so I persuaded him to try the idea burning just the oil dribbled in via a pipe. He had enough success that he had a stove built especially and has been experimenting with it since last year and not used wood since. It was from him, that I got my sample of hydralic oil from, to test in my burner. It burns similarly to WMO.

Its a long process of experimenting and trying different ideas. I've have been trying various ideas now for a good three years, but during that time I have had the benefit of heat in my workshop and for free.


Harry Bloomfield
 
Registered: February 12, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Thanks,
I have my heater running pretty good and I have learnt a couple things. Opening the air too much with my wvo (non preheat) robs too much heat from the bowl and it goes off.

I just got the dosing pump and I will be trying that in the following days.

I have just realized how much soot built up in my 4" exhaust pipe in a couple day of use and I will be changing to 6" probably. I would like to figure out a way to clean the soot without blowing it in the neighborhood air if possible for health reasons.

Is there a way to run the heater to create less soot?
Has anyone experimented with cleaning the soot in a way different than blowing it in the air?
Soot is carbon right? any problem with disposing of it mixing it into compost pile? (wvo should have no sulfur or heavy metals right?)
thanks
 
Location: NY | Registered: December 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
BUMP!

What have you guys rigged up over the last few years with your grease heaters? I switched from straight oil to an oil and sawdust mix shovelled into a modified wood stove a few years back. I had too much chunky sloppy creamy oil that i needed to get rid of and filtering just to burn was a pain. I can mix it straight into sawdust even if its drizzling with water and still get a clean burn. The wvo drip had a red hot habit of running away once i got things optimized for max temp and i didnt feel safe with it anymore.

The trick to getting high temps is shrouding and distance to flue. Make the flames travel around baffles and blanket the whole stove in flame. Look up your chimney with a mirror when cranking. If you have flame going into chimney youre flame path isnt long enough and youre heating atmosphere.
 
Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 ... 19 20 21 22 
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Biodiesel For Heating    3rd oil heater so far, this one is based on the Sanders heater concept.

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014