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Faulty heater and it turns into a biodiesel story and how permits are needed to go to the loo. Doncha just LOVE the mainstream media ?

Too much of a blaze to determine the cause ... translation: it could have been sabotage from a jealous neighbour but because it is biodiesel and such a good opportunity to push for controls that we won't even consider looking into it any further.

They can't determine the cause but they just KNOW it is the biodiesel. Yup, for sure.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I certainly don't want OSHA poking around my garage and fining me for bypassing he bladestop on my lawnmower after it wore out, or my Grandfather's 1950's era table saw not having an OSHA approved guard.

This fire apparently was in a wooden structure building, and the flames spread to the biodiesel processing area.

The house would have been consumed whether or not there was a BD processor in the garage, and would likely have had some spectacular photos for the local paper to publish. What if there had been a pickup with twin 20 gallon tanks full of gasoline in the basement garage? Maybe a 5 gallon plastic gas can for fueling the riding lawn mower sitting near where the fire spread into the garage area.

I suppose my question is what codes would have prevented the flames from being exacerbated by the already existing house fire?

Some people mentioned moving the processor to an out building. Might help if there is adequate area... in this case, the house fire might not have spread to the outbuilding, but would still have taken out the Chevy in the garage.

Maybe eliminating 100% of the flammables around the processor (no wood stands), and making the processor and all storage tanks out of propane tanks with outside vents... maybe underground tanks. Adding a CO2 system, or other built in extinguisher. fusible Links in the plumbing, Etc. Pretty soon you'd completely price the homebrewers out of the market.

Then the only BD related fires would be spectacular events like the oil refinery fires one occasionally hears about.


Not to mention, the house still would have burnt down.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
quote:
This fire apparently was in a wooden structure building, and the flames spread to the biodiesel processing area.

The fire on Forest Dell Drive in Edmonds started in the shed that housed the biodiesel equipment. It burned into the garage, which stood only 18 inches away, Tomberg said.

The fire did so much damage that it was impossible to determine exactly what sparked the blaze. Fire investigators believe a heater used to prevent the brew from turning into gel in the cold may have malfunctioned, Tomberg said.
So, the fire was started by the style of biodoiesel processing that individual chose to follow. A meth lab in the shed would have posed a similar hazard.

I live in a forested area and I wouldn't want my neighbors engaging in any such hazardous activity in a shed close to their house or the surrounding forest. Sure, some people will operate their labs safely, unfortunately the world is overpopulated with careless idiots. That's why we have bylaws restricting such operations in residential areas.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry, I read "heater fire", and hadn't thought of it in the room where the BD processing was.

I certainly agree that safety is important, especially with respect to fire safety. And, I think all homebrewers should consider the safety risk of their equipment, whether it is in their basement, or in the "back 40".

Maybe I should apply for a grant to design and build BD processing equipment for $1K-$2K that could withstand a house fire intact, and full of hot oil, BD, or methanol.

However, I believe that building inspectors in many communities have gone way beyond their basic charge of providing safe housing. And, while "little things" add up, many have lost touch with reality.

Keep in mind that biodiesel equipment is pretty low on the list of causes of fatal house fires.

The top two causes of fatal house fires based on several studies are alcohol and tobacco, either used independently, or together. One study in Minessota showed that 36% of fire fatalities had blood alcohol contents above 0.1 (this is higher than the 0.08 legal driving limit).

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/reports/index.shtm
http://medicolegal.tripod.com/preventfires.htm

Some studies report that as many as 25% of house fires are caused by smoking, and smoking caused 1400 fire related deaths in the US in 1995... or each year about half as many people are killed by smoking fire related deaths as were killed on 9/11 (this doesn't count cancer and emphysema), yet we haven't gone to war about it, rather it is perfectly legal to grow and sell right here in the USA.

And, many of the fire deaths from Alcohol and Tobacco are young children.

Is Joe Camel still advertising to 12 yr olds?
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Fire destroys Kerhonkson house
http://www.dailyfreeman.com/ar...e5a94f4233019713.txt
Published: Saturday, November 21, 2009

By The Daily Freeman

KERHONKSON — The explosion of a biodiesel manufacturing operation appears to be to blame for a fire that destroyed a Samsonville Road home on Friday.

Fire officials said they were alerted about 8:45 a.m. to a house fire at 59 Samsonville Road in the Rochester hamlet of Kerhonkson.

Accord Fire Chief William Farrell said the owner of the multifamily home apparently was making biodiesel fuel in the basement of the home.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You just KNOW laws and regs are being fast tracked behind the scenes on this one. It is irresponsible people like this that put us all in the crosshairs.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Legal Eagle:
You just KNOW laws and regs are being fast tracked behind the scenes on this one. It is irresponsible people like this that put us all in the crosshairs.

Yep, I could not agree more!
It's just a good thing nobody has been killed... Yet.
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by keelec:
I certainly don't want OSHA poking around my garage and fining me for bypassing he bladestop on my lawnmower after it wore out, or my Grandfather's 1950's era table saw not having an OSHA approved guard.

QUOTE]

OSHA has no jurisdiction over private individuals.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Legal Eagle:
You just KNOW laws and regs are being fast tracked behind the scenes on this one. It is irresponsible people like this that put us all in the crosshairs.
I expect we will see more insurance companies doing annual house inspections where they tell you how much more it will cost to continue covering thus and so that you are doing. Insurance companies are loosing money in the current economy and they're on the lookout for new ways to $uck more from you. If they can get govt regulations to help them out, well isn't that what lobbyists are for in this Capitalist Democracy?



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yup, agree. Capitalism with a conscience has it's benefits, but in many cases that is not the case, and conscienceless capitalism borders on the truly evil due to how it causes people to (mis)treat others, just for the sake of profit.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We build with bricks, stone and concrete rather than timber in this country. No law against timber but we don't have the vast tracts of forest that makes it an easy cheap solution for some countries. Accordingly timber houses are relatively rare except for what we call our garden sheds. Wooden outbuildings where the man of the house can keep his tools and tinker without upsetting the wife. If you do build out of timber you have to expect fire to be a serious problem and plan accordingly. That seems to be a big part of the problem in this case.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would have to believe an exploding reactor or methanol drum would be quite as catastrophic in a masonary or concrete building as in a wood frame structure, the structure may not burn to the ground but the interior would certainly be destroyed.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I dont know what the big fuss is. Houses burn down all the time. Lots of homes burn down because of heaters in the winter but no one is talking about preventing the use of home heaters. Nobody died. Lots of people die each year in car accidents. You need to take care of these car accident deaths first. Making biodiesel is a steep learning curve and I bet the fellow in this story learned a thing or two.
 
Registered: July 14, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by gator: Nobody died.


Guess that makes it OK then.

At the rate houses are burning down from Bio making fires, how long do you think it will be before someone does Die?
It will certainly happen because as evidenced by the occurrence of the fires themselves, so far it has just been Dumb luck rather than any sort of good management.

Once someone doses get killed, and lord forbid it should be a kid in some house, watch the regulators jump into action with all sorts of licenses, permits rules and regulations and money to be paid for the privilege of making your own fuel.
 
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Maybe it's just a rumor, but someone said that it's illegal to make BD in Oz.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would have to believe an exploding reactor or methanol drum would be quite as catastrophic in a masonary or concrete building as in a wood frame structure, the structure may not burn to the ground but the interior would certainly be destroyed.



I'm not knocking timber houses, just pointing out that if you have one then you should be careful about fire precautions as they are obviously prone to burn down easily. One of my favorite houses is built entirely from the wood of the forest it is located in. Very difficult to do in this country as there are all kinds of stupid laws to stop people living on natural land they actually own. It was on a channel 4 program called Grand Designs if you want to find it on the web. A thing of true beauty.

As for one of our typically brick houses with a brick or concrete garage. The garage is often separate from the house anyway. When it adjoins there are still two layers of brick and an air gap between it and the house. I doubt most small reactors or meth barrels used for a domestic set up would blow through the brick walls in most fire situations. The fire would certainly consume any flammables inside the garage. If it was a larger property (what is referred to from the bottom of the class system as 'posh') it might have a door into the garage from the house rather than only the simple drive in door at the front. In that case fire could possibly spread to the house using the connecting doorway. In either case the roof of the garage could be lost as this can be flammable rather than concrete. This might allow flames to reach a vulnerable window in the adjoining house. But overall less catastrophic than an all timber house which is naturally doomed without intervention once any part of it catches properly on fire. We do have a pretty good fire service so they can often put out a fire in time to save the house if it has not spread too quickly.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You just KNOW laws and regs are being fast tracked behind the scenes on this one. It is irresponsible people like this that put us all in the crosshairs.


Maybe we should determine and implement things to protect ourselves lawfully AHEAD of some knee-jerk reaction to a local event. There already exists a Hunter's Bill of Rights in many states that was enacted ahead of an anticipated attack by anti-hunters.

I think if someone was persistent, it would not be that difficult to get a law on at least the zoning books protecting and allowing biodiesel brewing. Hardly anybody pays attention to zoning law meetings anyway, which is what allows them to pass some horrendous crap. I think it would be better to proactively take that procedure and bend it to your will than wait for something to happen that will screw you later.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Maybe it's just a rumor, but someone said that it's illegal to make BD in Oz.


Nope, More Veg oil myth and BS.
Totally legal to make BD anywhere in oz.

I have also never heard of anyone having a house fire here from it or a bio plant blowing up or catching fire.
 
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<DCS>
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryan P.:
[QUOTE]
Maybe we should determine and implement things to protect ourselves lawfully AHEAD of some knee-jerk reaction to a local event.


Great Idea.

Of course it would never work.

I have seen people argue black and blue against the most logical and admitted source of mishaps and many will not even give possibility to the fact that these things may be dangerous.
While ever that mentality is as prevalent as it clearly is, there is no hope of any sort of self imposed standards.

When legislation does come into force, you can bet that the very things argued now will be the first things people have to do in order to comply with the regulations that would be enforced.
 
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Originally posted by DCS:
quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Maybe it's just a rumor, but someone said that it's illegal to make BD in Oz.


Nope, More Veg oil myth and BS.
Yeah, it was Tilly, I shoulda considered the source



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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