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Personally, I think an association is still just asking for an excuse for the government to levie fees and regulations and taxes on those of us who got into this to save money in the first place. Espescially in Mass(TAX)achusetts! I really don't want anyone poking into my private business. I take the safety precautions that are nessasary and my family my neighbors and I will all be safe, because that's how it should be done!!


Hmmm, no. If I'm your neighbor, you don't have any more right to define my safety as you see fit, than i have to do the same with yours. Everybody thinks their setup is safe. You'd have to be a complete idiot to be running a setup when you admit is unsafe. But people's idea of safety varies wildly. So that's the reason behind the creation of a uniform safety code: so that your neighbor won't be able to run a setup kept together with duct tape, regardless of how safe he might think it is.


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

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Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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bernyjb,
you are right to say that I don't have a right to define your safety, but also by the same token, if my neighbor decides to burn his house down, as long as he doesn't burn mine in the process, I sure as heck am not going to stop him, I'll just wait until the property goes on the market and buy it Razz
I just don't need the governor's office, or any other local government office poking around my business.Let's look at what we've got here, plumbing, electrical, and fire. If you want to have a set of codes let's limit to these categories. Have a plumber check the pipes , an electrician wire the deal and the fire dept. to make sure it's safe. No need to create a whole new group at town hall to define what's right and wrong, because as you say,"people's idea of safety varies wildly" so do those from town to town and state to state. I really don't like the idea of a set of guide lines, before you know it it'll become a book of guide lines then illeagle for for anyone in there own homes unless you set up a business and a plan and pay taxes on the whole deal.

Just MHO
Big Grin


"When you have no destination in mind, any road will do".
- Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland,


"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not."

— Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax


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Location: Dudley,MA | Registered: December 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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An Association ? They already tried that, and it isn't working too well. I think it's called the NBB

my point exactly



Didn't either of you two guy actually read any of the post in this thread?

The association I propose (for the 3rd time now) is:

"BY HOMEBREWERS, FOR HOMEBREWERS". and is NOT in ANY way an association of commercial interests. The only commercial aspect to the association would be renting advertising space to biodiesel related businesses (like to Graydon and Rick, for example).

By the way, the NBB works fine, just NOT FOR HOMEBREWERS, that's all.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I also want to point out that the purpose of defining basic safe brewing codes is to ACTUALLY define safe brewing practices, NOT to simply include everyones far flung unsafe methods in order to avoid hurting feelings and get the highest membership possible.

This isn't about including or excluding people, it's about defining safety so that people don't have to hide in the shadows or operate without permits and insurance.

Some people will be excluded because they brew unsafely and refuse to correct that. Others will pass the code by a wide safety margin.

The code WON'T be set by welders, carpenters , farmers and dental assistants. It will be set by professional engineers who know what they are talking about (preferrably who also brew at home themselves). Process engineers, mechanical engineers, chemical enginers and safety consultants and fire chiefs would be included in the core working group. They would only be needed until the basic codes were established and approved. If the group got non-profit status, maybe these professionals would be able to write off the costs of their participation on their taxes.

Administration would always be BY HOMEBREWERS, FOR HOMEBREWERS. A labour of love...

I forgot to include the 3rd main goal in my earlier post:

3. To secure either tax free or heavilly tax reduced status for homebrewed biodiesel. Federally and at the state level.

At this point, it's worth mentioning that in terms of political alliances, SVO/WVO users could also benefit from membership in the Homebrewers Alliance. Official endorsement from environmental lobby groups would also signal politicians and beaurocrats that it's not just a rag-tag band of nutbars that they're dealing with. If any enviro groups started *****ing about the rainforest depletion for biofuel feedstock issue, then maybe the Alliance could set forth in its mission statement that it only endorses the use of WVO or expired virgin oil as feedstock.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by welder:
quote:
quote:
An Association ? They already tried that, and it isn't working too well. I think it's called the NBB

my point exactly



Didn't either of you two guy actually read any of the post in this thread?

The association I propose (for the 3rd time now) is:

"BY HOMEBREWERS, FOR HOMEBREWERS". and is NOT in ANY way an association of commercial interests. The only commercial aspect to the association would be renting advertising space to biodiesel related businesses (like to Graydon and Rick, for example).

By the way, the NBB works fine, just NOT FOR HOMEBREWERS, that's all.


I shant stoop to the same level of condescention, but any free thinking individual knows within a reasonable doubt that every "association" that starts out as benevolent and well meaning sooner or later ends up bureaucratic and bureaucracy entrails goverment implication, either up front or through the back door, no matter how "well meaning" that regroupment of like-minded people is at it's onset. The minute it is centralised it looses it cachet and it's pioneering spirit.
The very reason that homebased biodiesel works as well as it does (the way Rudolf Diesel intended) is because it is not centralised or governed by a central entity but is indigenous and independant.
The NBB works alright, for the interests of it's commercial membership, so in that respect it is what it is, a political loby group, but did it start out that way ? Or did they not start out as a "voice for biodiesel" ? Seems inoffensive enough, unless you toss history into the equasion.
In Canada there are things called "The Ontario (and Quebec) Trucking Association". Now one would think that these entities are there to represent the interests of trucking. In a sense they are, the trucking company owners. They've not done one single solitary thing to alleviate the case of the people behind the wheels of the nations hundreds of thousands of highway drivers.
We don't need no central commitee or association to look out for the interests of the homebased biodiesel community. We have places like this where much more can get done in a much shorter period of time than through any central commitee.
Besides, decentralisation makes for a much more difficult target should anyone decide that government should be the sole control on it.
But when all is said and done, you are fully entitled to your opinion. I just don't share it.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here-Here!!
Thank you Legal, that's exactly what I've been trying to get accross, of course not quite as elegantly worded as you put it.
I really have nothing against any association of any type, unless it threatens to allow the government or some other group of people any type of oversite of how I can and can't spend my time or money.I certainly do not mean that we shouldn't lend a gentle reminder to those we come accross who may not be building the safest set ups, by all means we should talk safety TO EACH OTHER!! , but when you create a group to represent biodieselers as a way of being a voice (to lobby) to politicians, you play with fire, as I believe this string started out with.
Do we really want to get burned?
Thanks Legal


"When you have no destination in mind, any road will do".
- Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland,


"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not."

— Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax


Natural Oil Processing Environmental Community


Buy a bumper sticker or hat go to my store: http://www.cafepress.com/Bioheat
 
Location: Dudley,MA | Registered: December 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I agree. This forum and others like it provide all the 'association' biodiesel brewers should need.

The only way you will compete with the renderers is to develop good relationships with the few restaurants you collect oil from.

Biodiesel brewing is dominated by people looking for a cheap supply for their fuel guzzling 3/4 ton behemoths. Finding another limited resource to squander does not solve our energy problems. They are the ones who will make used oil no longer free in the near future.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My buddy has his processor in a custom room in his attached garage. You would not believe the system he has though for fire or explosion. He has ten electric sensors that monitor the air and temp. If anything gets above the set limit the system goes off. I am not sure what is in the 2 twenty pound containers but one time he was adjusting the settings and the system went off and the whole room was covered with powder about an inch thick. We could not even get out of the room because we couldn't see. It distroyed the bio in the processor and in a good way. If he had a fire start in his garage there is no way his processor in this custom room could even be used by a fire. It is a nice system but it was expensive. Better safe than sorry I guess.


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Location: Southern Minnesota | Registered: March 01, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Apart from being called an idiot and the anger that brought on I still have interest in this topic.

Exactly how much methanol has to vaporize in a liter of air for it to ignite if the LEL is 6% by volume? I can't seem to pin down that quanity. Thanks in advance.
 
Location: Hampton, Va | Registered: May 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Hipper

does one of the sensors detect methanol in the air?
I am not sure the white powder will be fast enough to prevent an explosion if the room fills with methanol vapor.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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William,
Don't sweat the idiot comment, we all get called that at one point or another Wink
Just look at the top of the page at the response bernyjb gave me, I'm a complete idiot!! Big Grin
Just keep plugging away at the questions, by the way...Sorry I don't have the answer to the one you just asked.


"When you have no destination in mind, any road will do".
- Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland,


"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not."

— Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax


Natural Oil Processing Environmental Community


Buy a bumper sticker or hat go to my store: http://www.cafepress.com/Bioheat
 
Location: Dudley,MA | Registered: December 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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BTW,
Tilly I'd like to say thanks, this is one of the more enteraining strings you've gotten started lately.


"When you have no destination in mind, any road will do".
- Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland,


"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not."

— Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax


Natural Oil Processing Environmental Community


Buy a bumper sticker or hat go to my store: http://www.cafepress.com/Bioheat
 
Location: Dudley,MA | Registered: December 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hiperf2007: that's exactly the reason why I said we shouldn't generalize. The fact that a reactor is in an attached garage doesn't automatically mean it's unsafe. That's the reason why a set of clear safety rules would be invaluable.

Lazerus, Legal Eagle and John Galt: nobody ever said that such association would imply mandatory affiliation. If you gentlemen prefer to keep brewing in the shadows, whispering to one another how indigenous and independent you are, suit yourselves. And, of course, if anything should happen, face the consequences of your "independence" alone.
But for those of us who'd like to have the right to homebrew legally, and to enjoy any advantage we could obtain without breaking the law, the creation of a homebrewers association would be welcomed.
There are some of us who don't really like being outcasts. We either just want to save money on fuel, or we enjoy the independence from the pump (whether it is from the prices, or from the shortages when a tragedy strikes, like a hurricane), so if we feel to form an association would be beneficial for us, why shouldn't we form it?
As I said before, if you want to join it, you're more than welcome to do so, but if you don't, why can't we?


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just look at the top of the page at the response bernyjb gave me, I'm a complete idiot!! Big Grin


HEEEEYYYY, I never said that...!

I said that you'd have to be an idiot to run a system you know is unsafe... Are you saying you know yours is? Big Grin Wink


************************

"When you don't think what you say, you say what you think" Jacinto Benavente.

"Wars not make one great" Yoda.

"A pessimist is a well informed optimist"

WWVhaCwgSSdtIGEgZ2Vlay4gU08gV0hBVD8=
 
Location: Miami, Florida. | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well,

You all raise good points.

I would like to start a new thread discussing a "code of ethics" or perhaps, "Safety Guidelines".

Ladies and gentlemen, one thing is for sure, unless we begin to frame a set of guidelines for homebrewing of biodiesel, and as a group decide what is acceptable practice. I assure you it won't be long before someone else that has absolutly NO interest in our little "hobby" will do it for us. OR they will strictly forbid it with a law!

C.


C.


2006 - Jeep Liberty CRD - Wife drives
 
Location: New England | Registered: July 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I never said you couldn't...go ahead, but the ?advantages? that you may or may not enjoy in the beginning will most certainly evaporate very fast once the government or your own associates within the organization realize that they can make money from you by "Regulating" the production of Biodiesel or maybe passing a collection tax on WVO, or storage fee for storing WVO or methanol on non commercial property.Keep a low profile is the only smart thing to do with the government. Maybe I sound a little paranoid about this, but I think a lot of other forum members may agree with me on this. So please be my guest and form your association and expose yourself to the world for them all to tax you into oblivion. Have fun bernyjb!


"When you have no destination in mind, any road will do".
- Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland,


"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not."

— Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax


Natural Oil Processing Environmental Community


Buy a bumper sticker or hat go to my store: http://www.cafepress.com/Bioheat
 
Location: Dudley,MA | Registered: December 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just look at the top of the page at the response bernyjb gave me, I'm a complete idiot!!


HEEEEYYYY, I never said that...!

I said that you'd have to be an idiot to run a system you know is unsafe... Are you saying you know yours is?


No, actually I plan on making it as safe as possable in as many ways as I can, by having electricians and plumber, you know the people who know what they're doing inspect my work before it goes into operation. Big Grin

RNCarl,
A set of guidelines on safety that people can read and learn from would certainly be in order, but not mandates from on high.


"When you have no destination in mind, any road will do".
- Cheshire Cat said in Alice in Wonderland,


"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
Nothing is going to get better. It's not."

— Dr. Seuss, from The Lorax


Natural Oil Processing Environmental Community


Buy a bumper sticker or hat go to my store: http://www.cafepress.com/Bioheat
 
Location: Dudley,MA | Registered: December 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Lazerus,

Have you gone to the Southboro F.D. website and seen what they have written? PLease go back and re-read it and read between the lines. Dude, I used to be one of them! I assure you, if they currently had juristriction to come onto private property, you, me and everyone else would be S.O.L.

I have already had two suppliers ask me for my general liability insurance certificate before they would sell me NaOH or methanol. I have had Burke Oil refuse to deliver methanol to a residence.

Chemical suppliers will stop selling supplies to us "homebrewers" because we are not insured properly. Why? because there is a little thing already built into the Superfund act that says there is "cradle-to-the-grave" responsibility for hazardous materials. Three years ago, the bio-d and wvo people were just some "wack-job" hippie types. Now, everyone has at least heard about it, read misinformation about it and are forming opinions about it.

It won't take many more house fires and god-forbid a fatility or two in a homebrewing setting to essentially shut down homebrewing.

C.

P.S. I understand your fear. Mass is one of the most anal-retentive states I have ever seen. I grew up in Ohio and when I moved here to the suspossed birthplace of our freedom and civil disobediance against governmental tyranny I couldn't believe this state had become what it had fought so hard against over 200 years ago!


C.


2006 - Jeep Liberty CRD - Wife drives
 
Location: New England | Registered: July 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Well, I must admit, I had some idea when I was putting my setup together of having it in my attached garage, and I was given the sound advice NOT to do that here. My biggest concern was the fumes from the methanol, although the fire was in the back of my mind. Look I have some WVO stored in my garage and a few other things that will burn if I have a big fire in the house, but I no longer store any ethanol or methanol there. You'd have to have one hell of a fire to get WVO or bio going but I see how it would make things worse if ever there was a big fire. My processor is away from the house not in any building.
 
Location: Gainesville, FL | Registered: November 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
I find the notion of a set of safety standards written by Bioers one of the funniest things I have heard of in a long time!

The way people go on with over the top and pedantic safety procedures on these pages, before any safety procedures were actually written, the safety zealots would come to the conclusion that the whole business of making bio was far too dangerous in the first place with all the accidents that " Might" or "Could" happen and they would have to ban the whole exercise they were trying to oversee. Roll Eyes

The same people would probably determine that operating a motor vehicle in the first place was too much of a risk to life and limb so you wouldn't need any bio for that for a start!

Even if they did come up with a set of regs, I have no doubt they would be so over the top that people would take the " easy" way out and be more than happy to have the local fire dept. EPA, Local council and any other Govt/ type authority come poking around and welcome them with open arms because what they required would be nothing compared to the over the top Pedantic things many of the people here would want to invoke. Roll Eyes
 
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