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QnD testing results
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Hey all,

I started a new thread for posting the results of the QnD testing.

The other thread is discussing other things that are also important, but I thought it would be helpful to have a separate thread with only the results for info and review.

So please post your testing results and test related comments here.

Hopefully this will make reviewing the performance of the product easier.

Posted 26 September 2008 07:48 PM Hide Post
I received my sample tonight. I only tested the first "Commercial" version, which has the large particles.

Setup:

I made a quick filtering tower (scaled down) and poured a sample from a batch that wasn't completely dry into it.

I did this in the kitchen sink and took the pics outside.

Here is a link to a website I threw together to show the pics. Lots of them, plus links to larger images for those who are curious.

http://home.comcast.net/~jcforummail/QnD/index.htm

I cut just about half the bottom off an empty water bottle, then cut a circle out of the bottom of this piece. Be sure to leave the edges of the bottom, then you can invert it and use it as a funnel stand as you can see in the pics.

I then took 3 generic coffee filters (we shop at Sam's Club) and stuffed them into the inverted top of the bottle. The cap makes it nice by preventing biodiesel from running out when finished.

Then I put almost the entire sample into the filter and slowly poured the biodiesel into the QnD. I tried not to fill it more than about 1/4" over the top of the QnD, as I'm sure the coffee filters could wick it around the QnD.

Results:

I think it took all the remaining water out on the first pass. There was just enough to make it a bit hazy before filtering.

The salsa jar I used to keep the sample from my earlier batch is air tight. The peanut butter jar with the dried biodiesel as a comparison is not air tight. That biodiesl finished drying in the jar some weeks ago (you can see some moisture vapor on the inside of the jar).

I've been boil/vacuum drying with good success. The batch I saved was from one I had trouble drying. It's dry, but I took the sample after washing and before completely dried.

I wanted to know how it would work with small amounts of water for polishing the fuel. After the QnD dries out, I'll try a really wet sample (in the wash tank now).


Supplies:

1- Emptied and dried plastic water bottle

3- Paper coffee filters

2- Glass jars. One with opening right size to support the filter

1- Straw to aid in the pouring (touch it to the edge of the pouring jar and hold the end just above where you want to pour it- remember chemistry class? )

2- Sheets of plain white paper under the printed sheet to ensure contrast

1- Sheet of white paper with black printing on it to demonstrate clarity

1- Small rock to hold paper against jar for picture


Why 3 coffee filters? Because one was really soft when wet. It flowed nicely, as seen by the steady stream outlined in the photo.

I didn't want to clog the thread with pics, so here are just a few.







- JC
 
Location: Western PA | Registered: August 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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spread out the QnD for drying. Here are some pics.








Some more pics, including larger versions on the same website. Click on the new "Drying and crystal sizes" link at the top.

http://home.comcast.net/~jcforummail/QnD/index.htm

- JC
 
Location: Western PA | Registered: August 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Would you consider trying diaper filling for an A B comparison of how each product works?

Apologies for crossposting this.

Looking into the more detail link it seems possible that Q& D is more closely related to polyacrylamide used for plants than Sodium polyacrylate used for diapers.

Q& D absorbs about 120 times it's own weight in water. Sodium polyacrylate absorbs 400-800 times its mass in water. Polyacrylamide will only absorb around 40-200 times its weight in water. Polyacrylamide is crosslinked with a bisacrylamide and this copolymer is not affected by salts in water. Its value is that it can be hydrated and dehydrated a seemingly unlimited amount of times over the course of from 2-3 years according to the manufacturer. It is sometimes referred to as "ghost crystals" because when fully hydrated the crystal is almost invisible in a glass of water.

Gro-Creature toys are inreresting because they are made up of two polymers: One is poly(vinyl acetate) which keeps the original proportions and the color of the "creature" and the other is polyacrylamide which is the superabsorbent material. These critters can be dried out and rehydrated over and over again since the superabsorbing material is polyacrylamide.

This would allow for a more physically resilient product.

Boiling water disintergrates them.

Any A B comparisons may be better done on the plant product or the toy material than nappy filling.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ant:
Would you consider trying diaper filling for an A B comparison of how each product works?


Of course, a performance comparison is valid IMHO. Do you have some to send? I guess I could get some from a diaper (it shouldn't matter, right?) since you're in the UK.

FYI. I did ask that question and was satisfied with the answer, though. It would absorb, then adsorb, making it non-reuseable. Yeah, it's only 1/2 the price, but if you can't reuse it...

The oil absorbing stuff works the same way, but on oil. It absorbs, then adsorbs- can't reuse it.

I haven't read the thread you listed on this topic yet, but I will.

- JC
 
Location: Western PA | Registered: August 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes it looks like the plant product is the one to go for.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I did some experiments with QnD trying to reduce water content in recovered methanol.

Methanol started in the 10-15% water content. Method used was a hydrometer. Methanol started at 83.5 (I can't remember what the units are). I took 1 liter of the methanol & added 10 grams of QnD. I stirred it in a sealed container for 1 day at ambient temperatures (90F). No change in density. I then just let it sit a week. Again, not change in density.

So it appears that QnD will not remove water from methanol. Note, there are other variations you could do on this. Raise the temperature is the only practical one, & with limited range. I guess you could try doing this in a vacuum or high pressure. But I'm going to move onto other experiments. My conclusion is that this is not a viable use of QnD. Oh well. More things to try.

-tony
 
Location: Central Texas | Registered: December 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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TexasTony,

Did the crystals adsorb anything? Did they grow?
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have started an experiment similar to what TexasTony has done. I took one liter of 85% methanol that was recovered from glycerine byproduct. I added 20grams of QnD and left it at RT for 24 hours. At the 24 hour point, I filtered out the QnD through a coffee filter. I bloted off the excess methanol and weighed the QnD. It weighed 40 grams. I then added 24 grams of new Qnd to the methanol. Yeah it was 24 grams as I was running late and that was all that was left from the sample that I received.
DD
 
Location: NY | Registered: February 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rick,

I haven't taken them out of the methanol yet. But from looking inside, they look about the same as when they went in. Now that isn't to say that they may have gone from 10 gr to 12 gr, but that isn't significant.

Maybe another experiment would be to take 1 oz (volume) of QnD, then top that oz of space with the 85% methanol. It could be that the absorbing volume isn't there.

Let me do some math to check things. I had 1 liter of methanol at about 85%, so 15% water. That works out to 150 gr of water. OK, so it's not realistic to expect 10 gr of QnD to absorb 15 times their weight! Even if they doubled their weight I wouldn't be able to measure the density difference. My mistake, bad experiment. As I said in another thread a day or two ago, always run the numbers!

On the other hand, at some point a super-high methanol to QnD ratio loses it's attractiveness/usefulness. If it needs to soak for 7 days with 1:1 ratio, does that make sense? For individuals, OK I could make the case. For a business/high volume, I don't know. Maybe Kumar can comment here.

-tony
 
Location: Central Texas | Registered: December 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
OK, so it's not realistic to expect 10 gr of QnD to absorb 15 times their weight! Even if they doubled their weight I wouldn't be able to measure the density difference. My mistake, bad experiment. As I said in another thread a day or two ago, always run the numbers!


It should be able to absorb 100 times it's weight. Time and temp are critical factors though.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tony,
I don't think it will take 7 days to get a result. My experiments were done at rt with no aggitation and the QnD seemed to work the same the second time even though the water content was lesss. I weighed the QnD at the 24 hour point and they doubled in weight. This was a repeatable effect. I did see a difference in the methanol having a higher purity. I am waiting for more product to repeat my experiments.
I think the key is using enough of the QnD to absorb enough of the water to make a measurable difference in the purity.
DD
 
Location: NY | Registered: February 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tony,

I was asking to see if the quick n dry would absorb methanol. After Dandy Don's response, I think it does.

So...

I put 40 grams of quick n dry into 350 ml of unwashed biodiesel, gave it a few shakes and sit it on the shelf. 12 hours later I can read newsprint through the sample with the quick n dry. The control sample is still too cloudy to see my finger on the other side. There appears to be a layer of soap on top of the crystals.

Looks like it absorbs methanol.
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
I think the key is using enough of the QnD to absorb enough of the water to make a measurable difference in the purity.


In the time and temps allowed.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I wonder if QnD has holes in it? Here is an interesting piece of info related to ethanol.

"...by chemical means (eg using drying agents like molecular seives - which with holes of 3 Angstrom (one Angstrom is one ten billionth of a meter) can seperate water (which has a diameter of 2.5 Angstroms) from ethanol (which has a diameter of 4.5 Angstroms)"

Find it on this site: http://homedistiller.org/theory.htm

Seems this could be adjusted for methanol with different size holes. Now that would be cool!

Thoughts?

- JC
 
Location: Western PA | Registered: August 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No molecular sieves, zeolites etc are very different from the cross linked polymers we are discussing.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Drying...

As this product is drying, it is returning to normal crystals, sort of a plasticized "sea salt" consistency.

Although it is sticking together, it is easy to separate. Sort of like poking your sugar jar with your spoon.

It may be better to have it on a screen when drying. I have it on a paper towel on foil, on a cookie sheet.

The paper towel is now saturated with oil, and I'm assuming water (?). A screen should allow that to fall through.

About drying and absorbing performance...

The QnD absorbs water, then releases it when in a dry environment.

So what would happen if you poured dry biodiesel through a tower that had previously been used for wet biodiesel and the crystals were, say, 50% saturated?

Would the QnD release the water into the biodiesel, similar to when they are drying out?

- JC
 
Location: Western PA | Registered: August 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On this topic it seems folks are worried about Drying the absorb between each batch, I say to not worry to much about it till it hits 75% or so of capacity. Also in between drying times if your procesor going to be down for awhile then maybe set the stuff out to dry. No need to be drying between each batch. That be like puttin a 5 gallon bucket under a leaky roof and then emptying it when it gets a quart full.

Trc


If you can't dazzel them with brilliance, then baffel them with bullchit.
 
Location: north of houston, south of dallas, east of austin | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
So what would happen if you poured dry biodiesel through a tower that had previously been used for wet biodiesel and the crystals were, say, 50% saturated?

Would the QnD release the water into the biodiesel, similar to when they are drying out?


That is a really good question. I read that the plant polymer dries out through evaporation.

Only a test will tell if it leaches water into bone dry bio.

My guess is not but I am not sure why I think that and I could easily be wrong.

perhaps because it dries more slowly than it absorbs?


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by RickDaTech:
Tony,

I was asking to see if the quick n dry would absorb methanol. After Dandy Don's response, I think it does.

So...

I put 40 grams of quick n dry into 350 ml of unwashed biodiesel, gave it a few shakes and sit it on the shelf. 12 hours later I can read newsprint through the sample with the quick n dry. The control sample is still too cloudy to see my finger on the other side. There appears to be a layer of soap on top of the crystals.

Looks like it absorbs methanol.


I am not sure how much methanol it absorbed in my experiments. I do know that 44 grams of QnD pulled 40 grams of water out of the methanol. How much methanol went with it, I do not know.
DD
 
Location: NY | Registered: February 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ant:
quote:
So what would happen if you poured dry biodiesel through a tower that had previously been used for wet biodiesel and the crystals were, say, 50% saturated?

Would the QnD release the water into the biodiesel, similar to when they are drying out?


That is a really good question. I read that the plant polymer dries out through evaporation.

Only a test will tell if it leaches water into bone dry bio.

My guess is not but I am not sure why I think that and I could easily be wrong.

perhaps because it dries more slowly than it absorbs?


Ant,

Wouldn't that depend on the osmolarity difference of the bio-d and the QnD? (don't flame me for not knowing the exact words)
What I mean is, particle concentration potential inside the QnD is lower than the bio-d resulting in the water moving out of the QnD molecule and over to the bio-d side?


C.


2006 - Jeep Liberty CRD - Wife drives
 
Location: New England | Registered: July 16, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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