hello all,

I hope i am in the right section...

i am new to BD, processing only 40L batches for now. They pass the 3/27 test so now i need to wash but i was given some amberlite but not sure if i should use it.

I was thinking of a water wash but not sure which is the most effective as the first wash were most of the contaminants are removed; then i was considering a pass through the resin.

should i do both or just stick with the resin?

if i was to stick with water washing i prefer the bouble washing with stones because it minimizes spills.

too many choices equals confusion for me.

Evan

Hi Evan,
I dont know much about amberlite resin.
But if you water wash first, even once, you'll probly want to dry the bio.

My resin, Purolite, is a mild desicant, but I try not to load up the resin with water or soaps.
If it works at all, your resin my be depleted in quick time.

2 or 3 more washes after the first, you may have it completed anyway, then on to drying.
And the polish the DRY bio with amberlite. or not.

I recommend all new producers to learn water wash at first.

HTH
Brian

yes i see the value in learning the basics...

what is the best and fasted water washing method , this is what i find most compicated - too many choices and one method does something the other doesnt etc....


thanks

I have recently moved over to purolite dry wash system. Once you go dry wash you will never go back. Its just great.

I agree with weldshop that the best way to learn biodiesel is water washing first. Otherwise you could end up killing your resin in just a few batches.

I see it as kinda counter productive to do both water washing and dry washing. The purpose of dry washing is not to use water. Using a hybrid system just doesnt make sense to me with the expense of setting up a dry wash system. Using a water wash you can make the highest quality fuel so I dont see why you would want to add amberlite on to the tail end of the process. Water washing has been used for years by producers to make ASTM biodiesel. To dry it, just leave a bubbler in your biodiesel over night and it should be dry, depending on your weather conditions and temp of biodiesel.

I attached a graph of how fast my biodiesel dried after I drained off the last water wash separation. I had a bubbler in and kept the BD at about 40 deg C.

Of course with water washing you have the problem of what to do with your waste water.

drying_curve.JPG (20 KB, 27 downloads)

Reece123
Do you have a link to your current drywash process?

I'm switching to NaOH and settle after demething.

Brian.

so a bubble was is simply add 40% water of the batch size and have several aquarium water stones to multiply the number of bubble? keep it at 40C and run the pump for 2-3 hours per wash, do this several times and all the soap should be gone? if not, what is your specific water washing and drying program?

evan

Hey weldshop,
If you send me your email I can forward you a .pdf I did up with pictures and the steps of my drywash process. Can PM me email if you don't want the world to know.

One thing I noticed about switching to NaOH then settling after demething, make sure your tank is accessible and easy to clean out. I was very surprised at all the soaps and crap that just fell out. If you can get a hose in there to rinse it out after you made your batch that works well and is easy.

Evangelos here is a wash procedure that works for a start. After a few batches you can modify it all you want and fine tune.
1- mist with hot water. Settle, drain.
2-mist with hot water. settle, drain.
3-mist, throw in aquarium bubbler. Give it 48 hours.
4- Off bubbler and allow to settle. Remove water. Soap test biodiesel. Shakem up test BD.
5- throw bubbler back into biodiesel. Leave over night to air dry.
6- pump thru your final filter and into storage.

Once your biodiesel is clean, it should only take a few minutes for it to clear from orange juice colour to transparent. If its just not clearing fast, you need to wash more. If the bubbler is giving you emulsions, try bubble washing with salt water, then do a couple mist washes to rinse out the residule salt water. Of course if you do everything correct you shouldn't get emulsion problems.

what are the temp of the water?

when bubbling do you use a stone or a tube of ex. 1/4 copper with holes made by a nail?

and the very same bubbling will also dry; do i still need to add a fan on top of the open tank? how hot should the bd be when washing and drying.

thanks

which mister do most people like/use?

Evan,

I have a $5 aquarium pump (3amps electric),
Ive tried limewood stones from saltwater aquarium stores, They swelled in time.
I ended up getting a couple air tool/sloenoid filters and brass fittings barbed into the aquarium hose.

There are plenty of misting set ups. I finally went using my garden hose with a dial setting nozzle w/mist and propped it over the wash tank. Not as gentle, but worked for me.

Not sure how hot, but hot. ~125*~ maybe. Rarely checked.
I misted with cold hose water and had to wait for heat each time.
Some people hose from their water heater.

A fan or blown ductwork is always good.

HTH

Whilst I feel it is useful to learn water washing, I think these days it is old skool with all it's inherant problems like emulsions and drying and we should be encouraging people to move onto the much easier and quicker waterless method of demething and settling, although some argue that releasing methanol into the water/sewage system and air is not harmful, I personaly don't think it should be encouraged.

A quick browse through the forums shows that 'dry wash' has just as many "inherent problems" as attributed to water wash. The age of the school has nothing to do with it.
It's pointless to argue that one technique is better than the other.
The 'best' system is the one that gives you consistently good quality BD. What works 'best' for one may not necessarily work 'best' for someone else.
There are simply too many variables involved to ever believe that there is One True Way.
Evangelism is for philosophical debates.

Ok i have to bite;

My name is Evangelos, I am Saved so i believe in the One True Way, I do Evangelise and to make my christian position harder to bear for secular christians i believe in the Superiority of the KJB.

Now nobody is going to respond to my posts... i hope i am wrong...


But back to washing; the reason i was thinking of using water to wash first is to remove the worst contaminants , then dry and finally a pass through the amberlite. A balanced approach sometimes makes more sense in the end.


how many people have incorporated the GL1 to their appleseed have been getting cleaner BD after the process requiring less washing either resin or water?

Utah biodiesel supply has some good misters u can order online:
http://utahbiodieselsupply.com...supplies.php#mistpro

Aquarium bubblers are also listed if you scroll down the above link.

If your going to introduce water to your dry wash process, investigate doing a 5% prewash.

After demething, settling will allow the majority of the crud to fall out. Do soap titrations to make sure its at an acceptable level before putting thru towers.

Some people do a mist before dry washing. You might want to look at getting this water out first before saturating ur resin with water. But you will find its tricky to dry this biodiesel as it still contains lots of soaps

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Reece123,

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
A quick browse through the forums shows that 'dry wash' has just as many "inherent problems" as attributed to water wash. The age of the school has nothing to do with it.
It's pointless to argue that one technique is better than the other.
The 'best' system is the one that gives you consistently good quality BD. What works 'best' for one may not necessarily work 'best' for someone else.
There are simply too many variables involved to ever believe that there is One True Way.
Evangelism is for philosophical debates.

well put it this way then John,

I don't know of anyone who has gone back to water washing after trying demething and settling out the soap, we had a 50 - 60 UK biofuelers meet at mine last month for beer n bbq w/end, and it was said more than once that it would seem like a backwards step, and those that were still washing were keen to try demeth/settle after listening to others sharing their results.
We all used to use 3.5G base + titration but now most use 5g or more and wouldn't consider going back to 3.5g as the base

I only try to pass on info to help others and I don't try and preach like some, try demeth and settle and see if you find it better, but if not and you are happy water washing then please continue.

quote:

Originally posted by Chug:
well put it this way then John,

I don't know of anyone who has gone back to water washing after trying demething and settling out the soap, we had a 50 - 60 UK biofuelers meet at mine last month for beer n bbq w/end, and it was said more than once that it would seem like a backwards step, and those that were still washing were keen to try demeth/settle after listening to others sharing their results.
We all used to use 3.5G base + titration but now most use 5g or more and wouldn't consider going back to 3.5g as the base

I only try to pass on info to help others and I don't try and preach like some, try demeth and settle and see if you find it better, but if not and you are happy water washing then please continue.

Right, right and right again. John Galt gets this advice time and again but still comes up with this same drivel on a regular basis. I dont know anyone who has returned to the hours of work and mess involved in water washing after trying dry washing, and I know several who have switched. John Galt is always punching thin air - he also seems to have some anti-religious agenda because for no apparent reason he needs to have a go at it.

PS - Goodonya Evangelos.

...and the best you can do is a personal attack? Not much credibility in shooting at the messenger. Just proves that your claims are meaningless if you have to attack the messenger to support your opinion. Somebody obviously feels threatened by truth. That's so pathetic.
If you want to carry on with believing that dry washing gives you clean BD then good for you. However every time you try to claim that it's as good or better than water washing in terms of BD quality then you will be challenged, because it's simply not true. Anyone who values their vehicle can browse the forums and find lots of horror stories involving so called 'dry washing' and the expensive repairs it causes. The facts speak for themselves.

Why not ask biogirlz how much dry washing biodiesel has cost her!!!. I'm with you John on this one. Tom

I agree with the subject line of this discussion "Water wash then dry wash". 'Dry wash' by itself, no way. In a perfect world, with fresh column materials, perhaps... however the world of used fryer oil BD is far from perfect. There are way too many variables to make generalized assumptions that 'dry wash' is as reliable as water wash.

well...

i will be getting my tank back on Tuesday, setup the GL1 with the addition of a static mixer and see what the results will be and take it from there.

so if i demeth, settle for 3-4 days, do the water jar shake and if the water after is clear just as Graham shows then passing the BD through the resin is a waste of time/money or a dry wash is a safety precaution or a sort of polish...

Evan

John, if you know what you're doing dry wash works fine for wvo..if you dont know what your doing, you will screw your resin, and your engine. Same as water washing..depending on the quality of your oil, either your dry wash or water wash process may have to change slightly.. for learning biodiesel i would not suggest going straight to dry washing.

Legal Eagle has been using his same batch of purolite for over a year now and having great results. And not one drop of water in that time.

I think if you're going to use water, use water.. if your going to dry wash..then dry wash..You can 'polish' just as well with water, so why add on complexity and big money to the tail of your process. Many use only water washing and produce ASTM fuel..

posted by Biotom:
Why not ask biogirlz how much dry washing biodiesel has cost her!!!.
---------------------------------------------------------------------


Dry washing didn't cost her a dime. But her own mistakes did.

Did she...


Understand the process completly? NO

have a proper distiller NO

allow bio to settle for soap dropout NO


Biotom, i agree with alot that you have to say, but on this point...

quote:

if you know what you're doing dry wash works fine for wvo..if you dont know what your doing, you will screw your resin, and your engine. Same as water washing..depending on the quality of your oil, either your dry wash or water wash process may have to change slightly.. for learning biodiesel i would not suggest going straight to dry washing.

Did you mean "if you know what you're doing dry wash works fine for biodiesel " not wvo ? If so then it's a good point, and I concur.

My objection is with encouraging the inexperienced to somehow avoid the perceived complexity of water washing by using expensive 'dry wash' materials instead. This promotes the misunderstanding that pouring separated BD through a column of magic resins or woodchips automatically makes perfect biodiesel. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I have no doubt that experienced operators like LE know how to use 'dry wash' correctly, and that's because he completely understands the biodiesel process [and it's limitations] and isn't just following a recipe blindly.

sorry yes your right.. i meant biodiesel from wvo feedstock. Using virgin oil feedstocks would be nice in a perfect world.. would make dry washing a little bit easier thats for sure

quote:

Originally posted by Chug:

I should add that 1 or 2 folks using the demeth and settle method do run the settled bio through ecopure or woodchips or similar, for as they say, a 'final polish' but I don't find it necesary, and some still like to do 5 -7% prewash after demething but before draining glyc.

Thats interesting Ive never thought about that. Sounds like a good idea. Have you heard much feedback on this process?

Also, I know you've probably answered this before, but do you know your soap ppm after settling and filtering?