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antifreeze from glycerine
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Apologies if this has come up before.

"Copper-chromite catalyst was identified as the most effective catalyst for the hydrogenolysis of glycerol to propylene glycol. The mild reaction conditions of 200 8C and 200 psi used in these studies give the process based on copper-chromite catalyst distincitve ompetitive advantages over traditional process using severe conditions of temperature and pressure. A novel mechanism to produce propylene glycol from glycerol via an acetol intermediate was proposed and validated. In a two-step reaction process, the first step of forming acetol can be performed at atmospheric pressure while the second requires a hydrogen partial pressure. Propylene glycol yields >73% were achieved at moderate reaction contions."

http://renewablealternatives.com/pgpaper.pdf


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I actually emailed Suppes doing the research on this to see if the process was viable for homebrewer's use and was instructed that it was a little more complicated than what the average Joe could do, so I didn't pursue it.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmm he may understimate the average Joe or not want it to be taken up by non royalty paying homebrewers...

The claim is that it is a much easier way to do the job with moderate reaction conditions.

The main 'average joe' problem I see is hydrogen at 200degC and 200psi. Not blowing anything up or starting a fire requires care I think. But an engineering problem which might be doable.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yup, hydrogen at 200Cand 200psi is most definetly out of the scope of "Joe average".
I mean, it IS doable, they did it.Thing is, can I do it? Answer = nope.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You may not be able to do it home, but for the small producer like Kumar, this could be a big deal. Propolene Glycol has much more value than just glycerine. The ROI may make this a worthy indevour for any small producer where every penny counts.
 
Registered: August 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Folks,
This is a little off topic but isn't auto antifreeze ethylene glycol? It is my understanding that before ethylene glycol became standard for antifreeze glycerol was widely used. Has anyone researched the corrosion protection additives used with glycerol? Why did the auto industry move away from glycerol? Was it just because ethylene glycol could be made from natural gas?
 
Registered: March 23, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I'm not sure if I'm allowed to quote stuff on here so here's a link.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/NOP/NationalList/TAPReviews/PropyleneGlycol.pdf

check out page 3 particularly the bottom of page 3, microbial catalysis of glycerol, they're trying to get around it's "high cost"!!!
 
Registered: March 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RickG, you can buy either kind (ethylene glycol or propolyne glycol). PG is more expensive, but it won't kill your kid (or cat) if he takes a sip.
 
Registered: August 14, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Glycerine is antifreeze. There's no reason to waste energy morphing it into glycol.


If that is the case, what would i mix with the glycerine to make it more the consistancy of a fluid that my water pump and radiator would be happy with? After all, even de-methed KOH glyc is a little soupy Wink
 
Registered: April 01, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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H2O, maybe start w/ 50%?
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM | Registered: July 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Propelene Glycol at $0.71 per pound is more valuable than Biodiesel which is currently valued at about half of that (if you can get it).

With all the glycerin that's being produced it seems this is a development worth watching.
 
Registered: December 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Boiling point water and glycerol

http://www.dow.com/glycerine/resources/table16_070.htm

Looks like the summer grade needs a higher percentage of glycerine than the optimal wniter grade.

Having a neutral ph, there should be no issues with corrosion. Or am I missing something?

The potential of using the byproduct as antifreeze makes the BD process even more financially attractive than it already is.
 
Registered: December 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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A previous post by neutral on another thread answers my question...

The glycerine will be saturated with salt and can only be removed by distillation under high temperature and pressure.

salt + water = corrosion
 
Registered: December 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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make that

salt + water + steel = corrosion
 
Registered: December 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would like to bring this thread back to a question of using glycerol as an auto antifreeze and how we might go about purifying the glycerol we produce.
A previous thread discussed purifying glycerol with either vacuum or steam distillation. That discussion seems to have collapsed by dicounting steam distillation and the difficulties with the vacuum distillation. I think that steam distillation may just be a viable process for a small scale operation. One objection to steam distillation was the presence of water in the recovered product but in the case of antifreeze you will want to blend with water anyhow. As long as the percent water is less than that required, no problem. In fact because the water is distilled it is actually do two functions, purifying the glycerol and providing distilled water for the final coolant. Steam distillation is a very do-able procedure for the small operator and it seems to me that with antifreeze at $8-10 per gallon any electric or gas cost may just be quite reasonable.
What is left unanswered is the question of anti-corrosion "packages" used in coolant. Several companies offer "packages" to be used with ethylene & propylene glycol but are these suitable for glycerol. This was probably fully reseached in the 1920's-'40's if someone has access to a university research library. How about it does anyone have access to a university library?
Any comments?
 
Registered: March 23, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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any updates on this? how to remove salt from glycerine? (dilute w/ water + boil off? won't salt come out w/ the water vapor? will glycerine also evaporate? any other way to neutralize corrosive properties of salts? add pepper??


rOLf

2 yrs and 100k mi on WVO - '93 VW EuroVan 2-tank w/ tank heat/HOH/10-micron heated Fleetguard, FPHE
 
Location: NE USA | Registered: April 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The glycerin can be distilled, kind of hot though. I don't know if you need to neutralize the acids before distilling.

You should come out with a clear liquid.

A number of things were used for antifreeze in the past including various alcohols. I presume that the ethylene/propylene glycol was chosen in part to keep it from biodegrading in the cooling system.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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BTW:

Neutralizing an acid or base is easy.

If you've added NaOH. Then if you add an equal (molar) amount of HCL, (until you get neutral PH), then you you will get what you started with plus a little salt water.

If you distill it, the water should come off early.
The glycerin should come out at about 290 Celsius (554F)

With any luck, you'll be left with Salt (NaCl) and some sludge.

If you don't neutralize the base, it is possible some of the glycerin would fail to volatilize. But, you should have more glycerin than moles of NaCl.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Crude byproduct as auto antifreeze. -- I did some reading on this way back and found some web posts, corrosion was not the problem, they said it attacked the rubber hoses and softened them beyond use first.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Tim,

I too have done some research concerning antifreeze and diesel engines.

The primary purpose of the antifreeze is to keep the water from freezing (duh!). But, the antifreeze must not cause its own problems.

One of the biggest problems for diesel engines is the tendency of the water to cavitate between the cylinder sleeve and the cylinder wall. The cavitation occurs as the piston travels up and down inside the cylinder.

The cavitation leads to pitting which leads to failure of the sleeve and complete engine failure.

So, if a person wanted to use propylene glycol to winterize the water system of his motor home or summer cabin, then great. But, it may not be best to use as diesel engine antifreeze.

Antifreezes designed for diesel engines include anti-cavitation qualities. And I always thought all antifreezes were the same, except for the color.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: producer,
 
Location: Illinois | Registered: February 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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